How do you ride a bike?

**Turbo** · 24-02-2016, 10:27 AM

I’ve spent a fair bit of track time on 600cc bikes. Both on tracks in Aus and in the UK, and I feel like I’m getting to know them well as well as how to cut some good laps.

I want more tho and I think 1000cc bikes are where I can find that extra bit of outright power as well as a deeper level of control, through the electronics etc.

I’ve ridden a quite a few litre bikes on track but they’ve never belonged to me so I’ve never really wanted to ride them hard.

What I’m keen to know is, who else has made this jump? What do you find the biggest differences to be from 600 to 1000cc? Do they require such a different approach to riding fast?

As many will know, one of the keys to riding a 600, is maintaining corner speed and not scrubbing off too much, as it’s harder to make it back up on the gas.

Surely the same approach to litre bikes would yield even better results?

Naturally the litre bike would reach higher speeds on the straights and would weigh more, so braking distances are longer and it would likely tip-in slower?.. How does that translate into the thinking of cutting a fast lap?

Can/should you just think of a litre bike as a really powerful 600 for optimum results?

**Binksy** · 24-02-2016, 11:01 AM

Personally only recently having changed from 600 to 1000 on the track. I'm really struggling with the change. Seems like the bike wants to be ridden really differently. I'm still kinda trying to ride it like the R6 and its just so hard to actually get to full throttle out of corners as you spend so much more time cranked over. I end up getting smoked by everyone driving out of corners while on the R6 I used to gain time on those around me out of corners. It is getting very frustrating but with more track time I'm hoping to modify my riding to suit what I believe the bike wants. At the creek im now only about 1s under my times on my R6. Even though I've gone from a relatively stock R6 (slip on, aftermarket rear shock, revalved stock front cartridges) to a Full ASC specced ZX10r (25mm Ohlins cartridges, Ohlins ttx36 rear shock etc). Although I suspect there is still a fair amount of set up to be done on my new bike!

**wellsprung** · 24-02-2016, 11:28 AM

I know a few guys I set bikes up for and the geometry for them varies a little differently to say a 600cc. I'm not a litre bike rider, but the general gist is to get them into the corner quick, turn them quick, pick them up and shoot them out. Very simplistic but something to think about, and harder said than done.

**chicken16** · 24-02-2016, 11:45 AM

I had a few issues transitioning from my ZX6 to the ZX10. The thing I found that really dropped my lap times on the 1000 was changing from the wide entry, holding as much speed as I could and running out wide with that speed didn't work on the 1000 as I was leant over way too much to hit the throttle. By slowing my entry slightly, turning it hard and standing it up as soon as I could let me get on the gas much harder, much earlier. Now I've just got to relearn the 600 all over again.

**nigelnobody** · 24-02-2016, 02:29 PM

Always wished i had started on a 600
Amazing how early really fast 600 guys get on it,seems like very little places where litre bikes have genuine advantage baring straights.
For me what works on most corner entry is braking as late as possible then the transition from mid to exit as quick as possible spending very little time on my knee.
The quicker i get up to fat part of tyre the better.Also perfecting throttle control on exit(ie. sorted fueling) makes smooth exits fun and fast.
Geometry obviously plays a big part in this goal,limiting wheelstands as well.

**chubb** · 24-02-2016, 04:34 PM

Owen it was a big learning curve for me jumping from the 600 to the 1000. Different lines from the 600 to the 1000. That being said, I have a lot of comments from other riders saying I ride the 1000 like a 600. Exit drive on the 1000 is still something I'm really trying to work on as its my weakest point riding the 1000.

I jumped on the Honda 600 (Kelly's not set up to my way of riding) and I had the best fun ever. It's a bit down on HP compared to the R6 (she is only putting out 102) and still laid down 44s in 65 degree track temp. As much as the 1000 is good on power, it's harder to ride that quick compared to the 600. It's definitely harder to throw around, got to be more careful on exit (even with electronics) longer braking distances due to the extra speed and weight.

When you want to jump in just do it. You can always go back to the 600

**Turbo** · 24-02-2016, 05:28 PM

Wow, some really interesting insight into people's experiences. Thanks very much for the feedback.
My own limited experience on litres has also shown up that different litre bikes seem to go about going fast in different ways.
The Aprilia and new R1 for example, seem much closer to the balance and poise of an R6 than say the S1000RR or ZX10, where brute force grunt, laid down with impressive electronics seems to be the approach.
I'm very keen to get stuck in to a litre bike and all the challenges with setup it may present. That's one of the biggest parts I like about this sport to be honest! Even shifting from a Gixxer to the R6 took A LOT of getting used to and a lot of tried and failed setups!

**chubb** · 24-02-2016, 08:08 PM

Along with lots more dollars in consumables.

**Binksy** · 25-02-2016, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by chicken16

I had a few issues transitioning from my ZX6 to the ZX10. The thing I found that really dropped my lap times on the 1000 was changing from the wide entry, holding as much speed as I could and running out wide with that speed didn't work on the 1000 as I was leant over way too much to hit the throttle. By slowing my entry slightly, turning it hard and standing it up as soon as I could let me get on the gas much harder, much earlier.

Yea pretty much exactly my issues at the moment.. :(

**stevem** · 25-02-2016, 06:02 PM

Owen , I am riding mine with no electronics and think the key is smooth throttle and smooth braking and not making rider movements to upset the bike. Some corners are get it in , aim and fire it out and some are holding the speed like a 600 but smoothness is the key for me.

**nigelnobody** · 25-02-2016, 06:50 PM

Very interesting steve am almost 100% convinced will be running my ninja no tc
Only another 13hp over my gixxer and makes peak torque a little higher anyway.
Currently very focused on setting up body position pre-apex to limit late unsettling of bike.
Great advise steve!

**stevem** · 25-02-2016, 07:11 PM

I set up pre braking . Like turn 1 at the creek I set up as I cross the start finish line still under power so the bike isnt upset at all. Maybe t 6 or t 9 I'll stay back on the bike to keep the rear wheel down but will be off the side ready to roll in and as the braking is under control slide forward into corner entry position . Another thing that helps me with changing direction that can be underused a lot is using your feet and footpegs to change direction.

**zoidberg** · 25-02-2016, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by stevem

I set up pre braking . Like turn 1 at the creek I set up as I cross the statt finish line still under power so the bike isnt upset at all. Maybe t 6 or t 9 I'll stay back on the bike to keep the rear wheel down but will be off the side ready to roll in and as the braking is under control slide forward into corner entry position . Another thing that helps me with changing direction that can be underused a lot is using your feet and footpegs to change direction.

That's an interesting point! Never really thought about using the footpegs much, other than riding the shitty new stuff at the creek, up the hill out of turn 6 it's all about that for me.

Steve, I have an 04 R1 without traction control, same as you. I find I tend to watch the more modern bikes laying black lines without their tail moving, whereas I need to wait a little to stand it up more or all the rear end does is move rather than drive. In my mind, I always wish I could do what I see Pedrosa do, IE; really push the bike more vertical up and get hard on the gas, but I tend to just be gradual on the throttle and roll it on harder as the bike gets more vertical. If I ever try to be more enthusiastic, it slides and I lose drive.

**nigelnobody** · 25-02-2016, 07:50 PM

Umm i think stevem is on a beemer.
Mstevo r1.
Loading the outside peg helps with traction and added benefit getting bike picked up quicker.

**zoidberg** · 25-02-2016, 07:56 PM

Oh, my bad, I know less and less everyday. I should really concentrate more on things like weighting footpegs, but there are lots of things I already struggle to concentrate on as it is. I will enjoy reading and learning from this thread! Here's hoping it keep going! And Owen, make sure it's clubsport ready whatever you get!

**Turbo** · 25-02-2016, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by stevem

Owen , I am riding mine with no electronics and think the key is smooth throttle and smooth braking and not making rider movements to upset the bike. Some corners are get it in , aim and fire it out and some are holding the speed like a 600 but smoothness is the key for me.

Thanks for the input, Steve. That's great to hear, smooth has always been fast in my experience!
I'm always pleasantly surprised that the fastest laps seem the calmest too.

**Turbo** · 25-02-2016, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by zoidberg

And Owen, make sure it's clubsport ready whatever you get!

Not sure I want to do that to be honest, I'm looking to make a proper jump. With so many ground breaking bikes coming out last year, I think that's the sort of bike I want to get my teeth stuck into.

**stevem** · 25-02-2016, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by nigelnobody

Umm i think stevem is on a beemer.
Mstevo r1.
Loading the outside peg helps with traction and added benefit getting bike picked up quicker.

Yeah 2011 s1000rr

**zoidberg** · 25-02-2016, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by Sicko

Not sure I want to do that to be honest, I'm looking to make a proper jump. With so many ground breaking bikes coming out last year, I think that's the sort of bike I want to get my teeth stuck into.

I would too! Oh well, I can watch you disappear in the distance in unlimited.

**chubb** · 25-02-2016, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by Sicko

Not sure I want to do that to be honest, I'm looking to make a proper jump. With so many ground breaking bikes coming out last year, I think that's the sort of bike I want to get my teeth stuck into.

You know you want the new 10R

**Marshy** · 26-02-2016, 06:25 AM

WeR1.....

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**Wolfie57** · 01-03-2016, 09:40 AM

Get the R1 mate they look and sound great! You're crazy enough not to be intimidated by a litre bike as well!!!!

Don't know about anyone else but the biggest change for me after years of riding 600's was learning how to use the rear brake and changing body position to keep the front down.....

**nigelnobody** · 01-03-2016, 10:02 AM

Agree wolfie rear brake is your best friend, keep it covered on exits works a treat!
Watch the honda riders asbk,stauffer jumps on it lets it go full throttle launches off slow corners.

**Wolfie57** · 01-03-2016, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by nigelnobody

Agree wolfie rear brake is your best friend, keep it covered on exits works a treat!
Watch the honda riders asbk,stauffer jumps on it lets it go full throttle launches off slow corners.

Yeh I'd never ever used it on track but once I moved to 1000's I had to learn fast, now I get through a couple of sets of brake pads a season. Will never be as bad as Chris Walker though, he uses a set a race and practically sets them on fire!

**Turbo** · 01-03-2016, 10:18 AM

I remember overhearing Glenn Allerton talking to Pete Frost about rear brake, on where and how often he uses it. I can't believe how many sets of pads they use!! Mine has cobwebs on it

There is probably a line where too much anti-wheelie electronics is robbing you of power whereas a good feel for rear brake allows you to ride out as much power as possible, per corner.

**Mstevo** · 01-03-2016, 10:34 AM

yep steering the bike with the rear brake, comes from his dirt bike training/skills, I'm thinking about changing back from the thumb brake, so I can get more pressure to lock up the rear, which used to scare the crap out of me until I got into dirt riding and learnt the rear brake is your friend :-)

**Turbo** · 01-03-2016, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Mstevo

I can get more pressure to lock up the rear, which used to scare the crap out of me until I got into dirt riding and learnt the rear brake is your friend :-)

Woah, so locking up is desirable? I always thought that slowing the rear was fine and helped you step it out but lockup was a no-no?

**Wolfie57** · 01-03-2016, 10:55 AM

A little trick - once Glenn goes past you watch him for as long as you can as his rear brake light works and you will be amazed how much he uses it, well before your normal braking marker and well after corner exit......just depends how long you can keep him in sight!!!

**Turbo** · 01-03-2016, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Wolfie57

A little trick - once Glenn goes past you watch him for as long as you can as his rear brake light works and you will be amazed how much he uses it, well before your normal braking marker and well after corner exit......just depends how long you can keep him in sight!!!

Yeah, I've seen that when he's on the road R1. Gave me a bit of a fright at the middle of T1! He was clearly well and truly back on the gas as I was still tipping.

**nigelnobody** · 01-03-2016, 02:04 PM

Quizzed Gilesy once as his tail light was flicking almost constantly.
Said uses it plenty but no need for braided lines as dont want to lock it.

**Negrogrande** · 01-03-2016, 03:20 PM

switch for me was the best thing I did.
With the R1, I didn't have to ride it as hard (granted better suspension and more power).
1st session I was a second faster & 3 by the end of the day.

it is also a joy not having to plan overtakes as far in advance, turn 12 roll on see you later

**chicken16** · 01-03-2016, 03:44 PM

I read an interview with Colin Edwards a few years ago and he was saying he never used the rear brake until he went to MotoGP. He said on the Superbike it meant one less thing he had to think about but once on the MotoGP monster he had to or he was off the track.

**stevem** · 01-03-2016, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Mstevo

yep steering the bike with the rear brake, comes from his dirt bike training/skills, I'm thinking about changing back from the thumb brake, so I can get more pressure to lock up the rear,

Can you elaborate on this ? When do you lock it ? .Do people use the rear brake to tighten a line mid corner ?

**nigelnobody** · 01-03-2016, 07:25 PM

Only time i ever use to rear to tighten line mid corner was turn 11(brabham) seems to pull it round at the bottom hairpin left.

**Carl-52** · 01-03-2016, 08:05 PM

can use the rear to tighten your line mid to exit, also in the braking zone its like throwing out an anchor... (dirtbike skills 101) I use it every now and then on the r6, on Stu's R6 i used it alot (mostly to bring the front end back down). Believe it or not they say clutch control is what you need to back it in. Rear brake is just to stop the rear from overtaking the front wheel and the clutch controls how far sideways you want it. I do NOT think you want to lock the rear tho on a road bike hahahahha Flat spotted tyres, bad vibes and lots of run wides i reckon if you do that

**Carl-52** · 01-03-2016, 08:05 PM

As im going faster im using it it more

**Petefrost** · 15-03-2016, 09:41 PM

Well gentlemen, much talkings! I went backwards before I went forwards in my transition from 600 to 1000, took a while but for me it was a combination of different riding style, and I agree with most of what's said here, you carry more speed into the turn, go deeper into the turn and square it off and fire it out. Also you have to be a lot more physical with the bike, way more. Much more input. Knee into the tank, pushing it over with the knee, weight on the pegs, pulling on the bars to get it up. Yes to using back brake, my tuition day with Glenn Allerton was worth every cent. Squeezing on the back brake out of most of the turns settles the bike, keeps the front wheel down and allows you to pull full throttle. A sometimes daunting thing on a litre bike. But last year, thanks in a large part to Glenn, I dropped 3 seconds a lap with more to come. This has also helped my confidence to which plays a massive role in how much you're willing to twist the throttle and how much you squeeze your levers. Get tuition gentlemen is my best advice.....

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**Marshy** · 15-03-2016, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Petefrost

But last year, thanks in a large part to Glenn, I dropped 3 seconds a lap with more to come. This has also helped my confidence to which plays a massive role in how much you're willing to twist the throttle and how much you squeeze your levers. Get tuition gentlemen is my best advice.....

Can you please just teach me what Glenn taught you? Thanks

**Petefrost** · 16-03-2016, 05:37 AM

No, now go away Marshy!

**Petefrost** · 16-03-2016, 05:39 AM

Also have to say that as my confidence rose, getting my boingers sorted by Rob Hodgson was another boost...

**Petefrost** · 16-03-2016, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by Marshy

Can you please just teach me what Glenn taught you? Thanks

Besides, you are quicker than me! Can you teach me turn 12? My current Achilles Heel?

**chubb** · 16-03-2016, 05:53 AM

Did you decide yet Owen??

I'm actually going back the other way. I can't really ride the 1000 the way it's meant to be ridden so I'm going back to what I was more comfortable on, a 600.

Guess I was always more a 600 rider than a 1000

**Marshy** · 16-03-2016, 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by Petefrost

Besides, you are quicker than me! Can you track me turn 12? My current Achilles Heel?

My best corner! Sure, I'll help..... right up to the point at which you surpass my laptimes. After that: no soup for you!!

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**Marshy** · 16-03-2016, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by chubb

I'm actually going back the other way. I can't really ride the 1000 the way it's meant to be ridden so I'm going back to what I was more comfortable on, a 600.

Guess I was always more a 600 rider than a 1000

I did this three times, so I know the feeling. The Aprilia was the only litre bike to suit me. It feels just like a fast 600.

Maybe I should try a 600 again. What are you getting, chubb?

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**chubb** · 16-03-2016, 06:00 AM

Either the 6R or the R6. My 10R should be up for sale in a couple of weeks.

**Marshy** · 16-03-2016, 06:01 AM

If PI was my local, I would definitely be back on a 600 too!! I had much more fun there on the R6.

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**Petefrost** · 16-03-2016, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by Marshy

My best corner! Sure, I'll help..... right up to the point at which you surpass my laptimes. After that: no soup for you!!

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Bloody turn Nazi!

**Binksy** · 16-03-2016, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Marshy

If PI was my local, I would definitely be back on a 600 too!! I had much more fun there on the R6.

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Would have thought it'd be the other way around! EC I LOVED on my 600 and really don't like it on my ZX10, just can't seem to get comfortable. But nothing compares to opening the ZX10 up on the exit of T12 at PI!

**Marshy** · 16-03-2016, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Binksy

Would have thought it'd be the other way around! EC I LOVED on my 600 and really don't like it on my ZX10, just can't seem to get comfortable. But nothing compares to opening the ZX10 up on the exit of T12 at PI!

Turn 12 maybe, but for me nothing nothing nothing compared to T3 at PI, bouncing the R6 off the limiter flat out in 5th gear, knee down, rear tyre spinning wildly and the tail hanging out. I'm not good enough to do that on a litre.

I'm noticing a bit of a pattern here.... the common denominator is the 10R!! I thought they were pretty rubbish when I rode one, but some people like them I guess. Although I can rattle off a long list of names of people that have never gelled with the big Kwaka. Maybe try a different litrebike before throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I didn't like the Hooonda when I had it either, nor obviously the Beemers. The Aprilia really really suits me and my 600-ish riding style.

That's how I got onto the Ape in the first place.... having just bought and quickly sold the Honda thou, I was speaking to Michael McMillan, who also had had Hondas and was about to quit racing altogether because he couldn't gel with them, when someone suggested to him to try the RSV4 and he fell in love! I took this on board, tried one as a result and also fell in love! It's like a powerful 600. Handles better than my R6 (which I totally didn't think was possible), has unbelievable midrange drive off turns because of the V motor, and isn't intimidating at the top end. The polar opposite to the inline fours, which are heavy, don't handle very well, have hardly any midrange, then are all peaky top-end power.

The exception would be the new R1, which I can't wait to ride. Liam tells me it feels pretty similar to the RSV4. Small and good handling, with better corner-exit drive than most inlines because of the cross-plane crank.