St George handicap replacement

[Marshy]

Ok TT brains trust... we need to put our thinking caps on! Background: I was at the St George committee meeting last night, and the whole vexed issue of the handicap came up again (for a lengthy discussion, actually). The short version is that nobody wants the handicap system, but they definitely want some way of ensuring that they don't get a string of people on exactly the same points total at the end of the year. This has happened before, and there wasn't a good way to resolve the situation - essentially 2 guys in different classes won every race in their respective classes for the whole year.

Some more info: The points scoring allocates separate points to each grade within a class, as well as each class. There need to be a minimum number of entries for a class to accrue championship points (not defined, but it's usually touted as 10 minimum per class).

So resutls for the meet look something like this. This is for the Clubsport 600 class, and as you can see A&B grade are scored together, but otherwise each grade get allocated their own points (so you are only racing for points against those in your grade).

http://tarmactalk.com/images/points.gif

[Marshy]

The aim here is to get rid of the handicap system, so that the outcome of each round is known on the day, not weeks or months later. Also the handicap heavily penalises those that don't finish the 3rd race (or whichever race is deemed the handicap race), as there are double points on offer for one race.

But, they want to ensure that we don't have a tie (or ties) at the end of the year! Not just for first, but down the line.

Thoughts?? How do other sports achieve this?

[Stu23]

Been there , had this discussion, and yes I loath the handicap races...

Personally speaking I don't give a toss if two people end up winning and sharing the prize, whats the problem with that, or is it that there aren't enough trophys to go around..

Countback usually sorts it out....... if you go back far enough then the results should be able to be sorted, race result.. qualifying even, should be something to distinguish

OR !!

Do away completely with the overall championship ( which really doesn't make much sense ! as ive never raced in a club that had one ) and put the prizes into the individual classes... that would seem to sort out the problem

[Mstevo]

Looking at the KISS principal

Points for qualifying position?
leading laps points, in class...(probably to messy to sort out)

[Negrogrande]

Looking at the KISS principal

Points for qualifying position?
(probably to messy to sort out)

this.
point for pole setter each round, it's not a Tissot but not bad either

[Marshy]

Do away completely with the overall championship ( which really doesn't make much sense ! as ive never raced in a club that had one ) and put the prizes into the individual classes... that would seem to sort out the problem

This was actually my proposal to the club last night. I didn't want to pre-empt the discussion by mentioning it. I was thinking about splitting the prizes up between the classes, with the top prizes going to the Unlimited and 600cc classes (not clubsport), to 1. get the best/fastest/highest budget riders in the 'top' classes, not running clubsport for the championship points (eg ME!! And others). And 2. you're then only competing with the guys in your class, not guys in different classes where you have no control over the outcome.

Their arguments against this were that: 1. The current system gives a new D-grader on, say, a 250 proddy in as good a chance to take out the top prize and the club championship as an A-grader on a zillion dollar superbike. Apparently this happened once before and it was well received.

Another suggestion I've got is to continue the overall club champion trophy system, but not have the prizes attached to that championship. Just the Arthur Blizzard memorial trophy, and a warm fuzzy feeling.


Personally speaking I don't give a toss if two people end up winning and sharing the prize, whats the problem with that, or is it that there aren't enough trophys to go around..

The tie that one year took months and many angry arguments to resolve, apparently, and they never want a repeat of that. I think the issue is that if both have won every race, and qualified on pole every time, in their respective classes, even a countback won't split them.

[senator8]

I agree, that it would be better to have winnings spread through the respective classes and winning your class gets the same outcome as other class wins. What would it matter if a new d grader on a 250 won and a grader on a Superbike. Accolades and prize outcome would be the same? As it stands now, in asbk or FX you chase your class. In St George your a secondary winner if you oy beat your competitors but not someone else's results in a possibly completely non related class!

[Stu23]

One other thing....Id like people to mull over

This whole A,B C and D thing, what is this all about really, If we are talking club racing that is..

In the UK ( sorry to keep harping back ) when you started racing your were a rookie ( Novice with an orange bib) you had your own championship to go for in each class 600s 1000s etc etc This was your D grade here in NSW

Everyone else raced in the same races, no A B or C grades,just everyone together for the class championship.

This simplified it, but also made it a little tougher when you left the Novice grade ( after 10 race wekends ) ......

Oh and anyone who turned up with a International licence was given a hard time (which is like your A grade) !!! lol

[Team Zero]

For my money I just want the a warm inner glow of racing on a relatively even playing field. And the possibility of a $2 trophy. How this is achieved in practice is tricky. I don't want to compete against A graders and ex pros for said trophy. So dropping the championship points from the handicap and possibly excluding A&B graders might leave it open to first timers and those that don't finish up the front. I certainly don't have the answer but at the end of the day it is entry level racing that should be easy to access for everyone. That is more of a rant than a solution but I'm sure we can come up with something.

[Stu23]

Agreed, it is why we had novice races, great fun, all the same level and enjoyment for those new to the sport... after that, it was a much bigger pond :)

I was explained the Handicap was also used to give new racers a warm fuzzy feeling if they did well !, hence why I like the Novice idea, but without the handicap race

[Jashdown]

What I wanna know is why there were A graders in the D grade class the other week? Jean-Christophe cuts laps faster than almost any other rider out there, including the A graders, Graham McCarthy is the same. What are they doing in D grade, unless they are exceptional talents and this is their first ever season of racing, I can't think of any reason for them to be there.

[DisPlaCeD]

I believe that currently there are progressive grids... if it was a TRUE handicapping system the grid would start with the qualifying positions and then usually the slow will go to the front, fast to the back, or however the handicap works. NOT after all the racing is said and done and then it's a bizarre points battle.

Agree to ditch the Overall Club Championship and then tada, it should negates the points tie that couldn't be won on a count back. Just Class Championships... I still think providing an official is poo, but it is only club racing, after all...

[Stu23]

Good Point........ When I 1st arrived and raced with st George, I was re graded after 1 bloody race meeting !! so yes, not sure whats the go with those riders mentioned :)

[Phat3R]

What I wanna know is why there were A graders in the D grade class the other week? Jean-Christophe cuts laps faster than almost any other rider out there, including the A graders, Graham McCarthy is the same. What are they doing in D grade, unless they are exceptional talents and this is their first ever season of racing, I can't think of any reason for them to be there.

Trophy hunting I think it's called when riders are obviously outside their class. Yeah JC in D is a joke!

[Phat3R]

One other thing....Id like people to mull over

This whole A,B C and D thing, what is this all about really, If we are talking club racing that is..

In the UK ( sorry to keep harping back ) when you started racing your were a rookie ( Novice with an orange bib) you had your own championship to go for in each class 600s 1000s etc etc This was your D grade here in NSW

Everyone else raced in the same races, no A B or C grades,just everyone together for the class championship.

This simplified it, but also made it a little tougher when you left the Novice grade ( after 10 race wekends ) ......

Oh and anyone who turned up with a International licence was given a hard time (which is like your A grade) !!! lol

I like the sound of that system.

[Mr.Ed]

Agree with the 1-championship for all deal. Also, if they're too worried about having to put more money into prizes for other classes maybe suggest something that would work both ways. I.e. 50% off the entry fees for the next season or whatever... this way they get ppl interested in racing/winning in their series and ensure they winners will be back next year. All without actually having to put real $ into it. Hell, they might even call it a 'winner's sponsorship' and claim it on tax. It's seriously not that hard to make the whole thing better.

And I LOVE the idea of a beginners championship. It doesn't even have to be called D-grade/novice or whatever if it hurts anyone's ego... just something for anyone who hasn't raced more than 5 meetings at the beginning of the year.

[Marty]

So how does the grading work? Do they put you in a grade or go you ask to be reviewed? I find it odd that some of the fastest guys are in D how is that possible?

[Mr.Ed]

So how does the grading work?

Simple answers is: It doesn't

[chubb]

What I wanna know is why there were A graders in the D grade class the other week? Jean-Christophe cuts laps faster than almost any other rider out there, including the A graders, Graham McCarthy is the same. What are they doing in D grade, unless they are exceptional talents and this is their first ever season of racing, I can't think of any reason for them to be there.

McCarthy is an A grader from Ireland.

I don't know about grasshopper

[chubb]

So how does the grading work? Do they put you in a grade or go you ask to be reviewed? I find it odd that some of the fastest guys are in D how is that possible?

Yeah don't even know how they do gradings.
Meant to be based on lap times and experience

[Marshy]

Yeah don't even know how they do gradings.
Meant to be based on lap times and experience

The grading system is badly broken and due for an overhaul. It is 'being looked at' by MA this year, but there's no timetable or plan for changing it yet.

However, the simple principle is that you start out as a D grader, and get moved up at the end of each year, depending on your performance and experience. JC is new to road racing (long history in dirt bikes tho), and as mentioned the crazy Irishman is simply in the wrong grade but he's also new to road racing in Australia, so gets put in D. The principle is also that you don't get re-graded during the year, but this should really be changed IMHO if you are clearly outside your grade.

[chubb]

There is a possibility that you can also skip a grade. It is possible that McCarthy becomes a B grader next year.

[Marshy]

True that. Everyone look forward to getting an envelope in the mail from MNSW congratulating them on their regrading soon!

[chubb]

So I can stay in D grade for 2 years right???

Hahaha :p

[Nelso]

The other problem with the grading is the two types of licenses. There are plenty of riders that ride in FX with AASA licenses for a while and then come back to MA events as D graders. I know a couple that are thinking of racing in St George Clubsport next year that will absolutely clean up and will most likely come in as D graders for this reason.

It's a sure sign that the system is messed up when you have D graders beating A and B graders.

[Nelso]

So I can stay in D grade for 2 years right???

Hahaha :p

Not a chance. You will be going to C grade, just like me.:wink:

[Nelso]

McCarthy is an A grader from Ireland.

I don't know about grasshopper

It was Grasshopper's 3rd roadrace meet.

[Nelso]

The aim here is to get rid of the handicap system, so that the outcome of each round is known on the day, not weeks or months later. Also the handicap heavily penalises those that don't finish the 3rd race (or whichever race is deemed the handicap race), as there are double points on offer for one race.

But, they want to ensure that we don't have a tie (or ties) at the end of the year! Not just for first, but down the line.

Thoughts?? How do other sports achieve this?

In weight lifting, the lightest lifter wins in the event of a tie so maybe we could do the opposite.

To break the deadlock: bonus points the heavier the rider
bonus points the older the rider
bonus points the older the bike model
deduct bonus points for every modification made to the bike

Since each of these things give someone an advantage over other riders, it seams fair to use them to break the deadlock.:eyebrows:

[Marshy]

In weight lifting, the lightest lifter wins in the event of a tie so maybe we could do the opposite.

To break the deadlock: bonus points the heavier the rider
bonus points the older the rider
bonus points the older the bike model
deduct bonus points for every modification made to the bike

Since each of these things give someone an advantage over other riders, it seams fair to use them to break the deadlock.:eyebrows:

I like it!!

[Stu23]

Ill do good on all of them :) excellent

[Stu23]

oh hold on .... you need to be winning to have this problem doh ! never mind

[Nelso]

oh hold on .... you need to be winning to have this problem doh ! never mind

Yep, that puts me out too.:doh:

[senator8]

On the subject of grading. I believe that next season I should rightfully compete as a C grader under MA in club racing. But at the end of last year after racing for less than 6 months I was graded C. I, at the time did not even have a MA lic only AASA in which I was correctly D grade.

Below is the communication I had with the club. Club in red myself in blue. I have removed the names, as I am not blaming anyone or having a go. Just thought it may interest others who encounter the same. I still don't understand how many D graders are still D graders after so long.

Dear Sir/Madam,
In reference to this document http://www.stgeorgemcc.com/pdfs/roadrace/2013/St%20George%20RR%20Grading%20List%20Effective%201% 20January%202013.pdf

If I am to compete in the 2013 season with St George club, I would like to compete as a 'D' grade rider. I cannot comprehend how I could be considered a c grade competitor based on either my times or results in the short time I have been racing.

Aside from riding for a couple of years in the mid 90s, I have only been riding for a little over 18mths, started doing track days in March 1012, and my first event in June 2012. So riding on track 9 months and racing 6 months. I have been working hard to improve, but find the grading to 'c' quite demotivating as I am not yet even close to competitive as d grader. My most recent race event was a last place in 5 out of 6 races in a field of 47!

Please change my grading to D for the 2013 year and allow me at least to do a season in my correct grade.

Your sincerely

Rick
Hi Rick,
The re-gradings are done/set by the NSW Road Race Committee not St George MCC. If you wish to challenge your re-grading you will need to contact the MNSW Office who will pass it on to the NSW Road Race Committee.
I can advise you however, that according to the NSW Road Race By Laws, the re-grading from D to C is not dependent upon lap times nor race results. It is purely based on the fact that a rider has had "racing experience", meaning has entered and contested a few race meetings and understands how a race meeting runs.
Please note that at a St George RR meeting C and D grade run together.

Regards,

Hi
Thank you for taking the time to reply. Especially over the break.

The reason I sent my request to this address is because the St George grading document says "If you believe a grade to be incorrect, please contact us by email at stgmembers@pnc.com.au"

I understand that C & D grades are run together but they are scored and awarded separately. I don't understand how MNSW can grade me when I do not hold a MA license, and why my St George grading is different to my AASA lic which is D grade.

I think that the list is incorrect. Who do I contact?

Kind regards

Rick


Hi Rick,
As mentioned earlier, the grading from D to C is done when a rider has gained "race experience", not results.

Accordingly your C grading is correct.

Regards,

Hi
Thanks for looking into it. Still doesn't make sense to me. Friends who have entered many more events than I are still D grade. And I have entered 2 pcra meetings, 1 St george and 1 fx. As I expressed earlier, it is disappointing to not have a chance of being even remotely competitive and race against riders of the same experience.
I will apply for MA license this year. Do I do it through the club?

Thanks

Rick
Hi Rick,
Sorry I didn't have better news for you.

We are aware that your plight has highlighted the inconsistencies and we will be addressing them.

Regards

[chubb]

There probably will be still inconsistencies across the board with overseas riders or A graders with AASA lic wanting to come over to MA..

They should remain A grade and not start with D grade.

[Marshy]

Yep, that sucks, Rick. Many people have experienced the same or similar situations. The email from StG is technically accurate but not really how it works. As I understand it, the club prepares the list and forwards it to the RR committee (which also has club members on the committee), who rubber stamp it. MNSW then send out the certificates.

MA voted earlier this year to 'review' the grading system. There were two people nominated to look into it. They will apparently report back next year sometime. There wasn't even a direction to come back with a proposal specifically.

Frankly, it's not rocket surgery. It should simply be based on objective, measurable criteria, NOT the current subjective, whimsical system of 'at the discretion of a club committee member'. There should simply be lap-time brackets for grades, possibly based on machinery. And there should be three grades, not four (VIC only has A, B, and C). Plus a Novice category. This whole 'level of experience' stuff is total crap! You should race against people of your speed, not your experience. Times from all races (AASA, or MA) are all online now, so it is easy to check times.

Novice: Never raced (in any form of motorsport!) before; you only a novice for 3 race meetings maximum, and you get moved up regardless after winning a Novice-class race meet - even if it's your first ever race meet. Novices race separately to everyone else, and are not split by capacity (all Novices race on track together, separately from other grades). This allows people that have just started to actually win a race by crossing the line first, which is something that will hook people for life (it did for me). You get regraded at the end of your 3 race meets into whichever grade you fit, based on laptimes.

C grade: Same as currently. Lap time bracket, say, 1:50+ at EC and equivalent at other tracks.

B grade: 1:40 to 1:50 at EC (and equivalent).

A grade: sub-1:40.

My $0.02

[Mr.Ed]

As a n00b I like the idea of the 4 grades... The bracket between 1:40-1:50 sounds like a small 10second difference but in reality those are the tougher 10secs for most riders. I've only done 2 races meetings and only one of them was with MA... and I'd be thrown straight into B group next year according to your suggestion. Sure, you could say I'd be given 2 more races in the Novice group but I'd still be skipping C and if you like finishing first let me tell right now, I just kissed that chance goodbye if I have to ride in the B grade described above.

To me, 4 grades gives a lot more motivation to race than finishing first in one of the 3 races you'd be allowed in Novice. IMHO, there should be both... Novice for 3 races and then automatically grade you according to your lap times/speed. My suggestion for brackets would be (and this is for 600s I'd like to clarify):

D grade: 1:58+
C grade: 1:47 to 1:57
B grade: 1:40 to 1:46
A grade: sub 1:40.

And you'd have to have more than 5 laps on a bracket before you get bumped. Otherwise you get one lucky lap following a faster rider during qually and next thing you know you've changed grades.

[Mstevo]

In Victoria you start at "C" grade
as explained by MNSW correspondence "D" grade is for novices, however any body wanting to race should have to declare any racing experience and any previous grades held.
My first year was 2 races and I was fighting for last place, the next year I was in "C" grade and from memory I'm still a "C" grader in FX, although I refuse to ride outside my MNSW "B" grade when racing inter series or interstate

BTW the Mexicans/Preston MCC don't do progressive grids, that makes racing interesting

[Mstevo]

The trouble with time grading is it's bike dependent

[Mr.Ed]

You can just take 3secs off and do it for thousands and I reckon you wouldn't be too far off...

[senator8]

The trouble with time grading is it's bike dependent

agreed.
There is 5 sec difference for me between my two bikes. It would need to be time brackets in classes. eg 1:45 in retro is fast but in unlimited it isn't.

[tempest]

% of lap record for the class.

Most will find they are a similar % off the respective lap record on each bike they ride.

Enforce quali cut offs and run a novice race.

[Marshy]

% of lap record for the class.

Most will find they are a similar % off the respective lap record on each bike they ride.

This!! Perfect.

[Marshy]

As a n00b I like the idea of the 4 grades...

There just aren't enough people for this in almost all classes and race meets. If you are trying to give almost everyone a trophy, this works perfectly! But I'd rather make trophies a little harder to get than just turning up ;) Remember that this is 'per grade, per class', and if you've ever been to a trophy presentation, particularly at a St George meet with lots of different classes, it is just a sea of trophies. 1st, 2nd, 3rd in each grade, in each class. That's a shit-load of trophies! In reality St George and most other race meets already self-correct into 3 grades, as they simply combine A and B into the same grade.


And you'd have to have more than 5 laps on a bracket before you get bumped. Otherwise you get one lucky lap following a faster rider during qually and next thing you know you've changed grades.

Agreed. I forgot to put this in my first post.

[Mstevo]

% of lap record for the class.

Most will find they are a similar % off the respective lap record on each bike they ride.

Enforce quali cut offs and run a novice race.

remember you can only be graded at the start of the year, what happens if you buy another bike and you just get fast through the year?
also the quali cut offs sound good but it's way to much work for the club volunteers to do on the day

I don't think there is a solution that comes even close to covering 80% of the various scenarios, you could have no major end of year prizes, just round prizes...but the club has it's traditions which need to be respected.

[Marshy]

remember you can only be graded at the start of the year

In ye olden days, there were two gradings per year - mid season and at the end of the year. You kept your points total, but started accruing points in your new grade if you got bumped halfway through the season. This sorted out uber-fast guys that were D graders but should have been B.

[Stu23]

As I previously stated you can and I have been graded within the year...... I also was the only C grader racing in clubsport a couple of years ago ( all me mates got regraded and I was too slow ).. Yipeeee thought I.... That year They ran the A , b and C grades all together in clubsport oh shit !!

[Baddie]

Yep, that sucks, Rick. Many people have experienced the same or similar situations. The email from StG is technically accurate but not really how it works. As I understand it, the club prepares the list and forwards it to the RR committee (which also has club members on the committee), who rubber stamp it. MNSW then send out the certificates.

MA voted earlier this year to 'review' the grading system. There were two people nominated to look into it. They will apparently report back next year sometime. There wasn't even a direction to come back with a proposal specifically.

Frankly, it's not rocket surgery. It should simply be based on objective, measurable criteria, NOT the current subjective, whimsical system of 'at the discretion of a club committee member'. There should simply be lap-time brackets for grades, possibly based on machinery. And there should be three grades, not four (VIC only has A, B, and C). Plus a Novice category. This whole 'level of experience' stuff is total crap! You should race against people of your speed, not your experience. Times from all races (AASA, or MA) are all online now, so it is easy to check times.

Novice: Never raced (in any form of motorsport!) before; you only a novice for 3 race meetings maximum, and you get moved up regardless after winning a Novice-class race meet - even if it's your first ever race meet. Novices race separately to everyone else, and are not split by capacity (all Novices race on track together, separately from other grades). This allows people that have just started to actually win a race by crossing the line first, which is something that will hook people for life (it did for me). You get regraded at the end of your 3 race meets into whichever grade you fit, based on laptimes.

C grade: Same as currently. Lap time bracket, say, 1:50+ at EC and equivalent at other tracks.

B grade: 1:40 to 1:50 at EC (and equivalent).

A grade: sub-1:40.

My $0.02

Love the Novice idea...give us old and slow guys a chance :peace::D:bounce::bounce::bounce::nod::nod::nod::n od::nod::nod::nod::nod::kiss::kiss::kiss::kiss::ki ss::kiss::kiss::kiss::kiss::cheer::cheer::cheer::c heer::cheer::cheer::cheer::cheer:

[Saturnalian]

It was Grasshopper's 3rd roadrace meet.

that may be true but 2 years ago he was out there what seemed like every weekend cutting laps at track days and super bike schools, and he was damn quick then too.

[Saturnalian]

Love the Novice idea...give us old and slow guys a chance :peace::D:bounce::bounce::bounce::nod::nod::nod::n od::nod::nod::nod::nod::kiss::kiss::kiss::kiss::ki ss::kiss::kiss::kiss::kiss::cheer::cheer::cheer::c heer::cheer::cheer::cheer::cheer:

you'd still need to actually enter a race first !!!!

[Mr.Ed]

There just aren't enough people for this in almost all classes and race meets. If you are trying to give almost everyone a trophy, this works perfectly! But I'd rather make trophies a little harder to get than just turning up ;) Remember that this is 'per grade, per class', and if you've ever been to a trophy presentation, particularly at a St George meet with lots of different classes, it is just a sea of trophies. 1st, 2nd, 3rd in each grade, in each class. That's a shit-load of trophies! In reality St George and most other race meets already self-correct into 3 grades, as they simply combine A and B into the same grade.



Agreed. I forgot to put this in my first post.

Yep! Sorry, it makes sense. I forgot about 2nd and 3rd places... and to be honest, I reckon they should only call up the 1st place anyway.

[Marshy]

that may be true but 2 years ago he was out there what seemed like every weekend cutting laps at track days and super bike schools, and he was damn quick then too.

Right! And under my plan he wouldn't have been eligible for Novice anyway (lots of previous MX racing), but even if he had been, he'd have won the first weekend in Novice and immediately been bumped up.

[Negrogrande]

% of lap record for the class.

Most will find they are a similar % off the respective lap record on each bike they ride.

Enforce quali cut offs and run a novice race.This!! Perfect.



+2

[Marty]

Thanks for clearing it up for me Nick. It's how I suspected it worked.

I'll be spewing if they move me up to C next year after 3 race meetings (9 races) this year. I can qualify ok but can't race for shit

[dan]

You should get bonus points for riding a GSXR600 and lose points for riding an R6 haha

[Phat3R]

You should get bonus points for riding a GSXR600 and lose points for riding an R6 haha

I second that ... :attention:

[Team Zero]

In my world you have to be over 40 to race and you get bumped up a grade every time you finish in front of an R6 with the number 72. In all seriousness though I love the % idea. The only thought is that people being people might try and game the system.

[Negrogrande]

You should get bonus points for riding a GSXR600 and lose points for riding an R6 hahaI second that ... :attention:

Third!

[Phat3R]

Thanks for clearing it up for me Nick. It's how I suspected it worked.

I'll be spewing if they move me up to C next year after 3 race meetings (9 races) this year. I can qualify ok but can't race for shit


We are aware that your plight has highlighted the inconsistencies and we will be addressing them ... neva.

I think they should move you up to C ... and take Dan with you too ... when he's off crutches :) :boom:

[Phat3R]

Hi Rick,
Sorry I didn't have better news for you.

We are aware that your plight has highlighted the inconsistencies and we will be addressing them.

Regards

If the body responsible doesn't have the resources to do the grading correctly ... then why do it at all?

[Marshy]

If the body responsible doesn't have the resources to do the grading correctly ... then why do it at all?

Mostly this:

http://elsmar.com/Brainstorming/img015.jpg



My view:

http://demotivators.despair.com/demotivational/traditiondemotivator.jpg



And then there's this:

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ce/c6/01/cec601da257c601174d5523260643b2f.jpg

[Phat3R]

Mostly this:

http://elsmar.com/Brainstorming/img015.jpg



My view:

http://demotivators.despair.com/demotivational/traditiondemotivator.jpg



And then there's this:

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ce/c6/01/cec601da257c601174d5523260643b2f.jpg

+1 Google LOL

[tempest]

remember you can only be graded at the start of the year, what happens if you buy another bike and you just get fast through the year?
also the quali cut offs sound good but it's way to much work for the club volunteers to do on the day

I don't think there is a solution that comes even close to covering 80% of the various scenarios, you could have no major end of year prizes, just round prizes...but the club has it's traditions which need to be respected.

the club is only what its members want.

grading done once per year can be ok, but as Marshy said mid year is plausible also.

quali cut off is a simple number and absolutely no issue to work out.

in the current climate of egos and race series, the worst thing a racer with any interest in staying in lower gradings can do is race club meets. this seems to be the only place where re-grading occurs.

a simple percentage formula is now very easy to use based on results across ALL series.

[Nelso]

Thanks for clearing it up for me Nick. It's how I suspected it worked.

I'll be spewing if they move me up to C next year after 3 race meetings (9 races) this year. I can qualify ok but can't race for shit

After 3 race meets, you will definitely get moved up to C. As has been said, D grade is meant to be only for novices, so you do fit the criteria to go up for next year. Everyone has to start looking at D grade differently and look at C grade as the bottom group, with D there just for the first timers. The only problem with the system at the moment is the experienced riders coming in as D graders like Macarthy and Grasshopper and people doing Race Your Mates and not admitting that it is racing.

[Nelso]

I like the idea of renaming D grade to novice.:thumb: And I also like the idea that you automatically get moved up in your second year of racing or after any 3 race meets, even mid year, as it will encourage newbies to give racing a go if they are only competing with other newbies.

I only raced once last year. My very first race was the last round of St George and I did a mid 1:44 on the GP circuit. The winner of D grade that race meet did consistent 1:39's and had raced in FX as well as St George the year before. I couldn't understand why he was still in D grade and thought it was not the best thing to encourage beginners to have someone doing those times in the 'novice' group as it sends the message that unless you're super quick, you're not fast enough to race. The only reason I didn't go up to C grade at the start of this year was because I had only ever done one race meet, but I was prepared to be bumped up to C grade if they thought I should because of the times I had done. I know people who were moved up to C for this year that had slower times than me but had raced in more than one meet and some of them were annoyed that I was kept in D grade and that they didn't have a chance to win a title because they were now racing against C graders. In the last round it didn't matter either way as C and D grade were thrown in together. As a D grader, I never made it into the 30's, but I did get a 1:40.4 at the NSW Titles, which was my 3rd race meet. I honestly think I should have been bumped up after that. I can't wait to get regraded as it is a bit embarrassing to admit that I'm only a D grader, especially since my wife is a B grader.:sad:

What's my point? Suck it up and be happy to get out of D grade as soon as possible, as it means you are now considered a REAL racer.:rockon:

[dan]

I think they should move you up to C ... and take Dan with you too ... when he's off crutches :) :boom:

Oi I'm johnny-one-race leave me out of this!

[dan]

Oi I'm johnny-one-race leave me out of this!

In all seriousness though I'm looking forward to moving up to C grade. I'm pretty happy doing what I'm doing on the equipment I have and I look forward to [hopefully] constantly improving and getting amongst the C graders on much faster machines on my tired and much suffering old, fat GSXR - and maybe even turning a few heads.

When I want to start taking shots at B graders it might be time to upgrade ;)

[Marty]

After 3 race meets, you will definitely get moved up to C. As has been said, D grade is meant to be only for novices, so you do fit the criteria to go up for next year. Everyone has to start looking at D grade differently and look at C grade as the bottom group, with D there just for the first timers. The only problem with the system at the moment is the experienced riders coming in as D graders like Macarthy and Grasshopper and people doing Race Your Mates and not admitting that it is racing.

Seems fair then, I was just surprised to count 17 D graders in Clubsport 600 last meetings. Is it safe to say that they are all in their first year of club racing? (Ignoring the two aliens)

If so than that's awesome! I remember reading that club racing was dying out but the turn out round5-6 was pretty impressive. I'm badgering some of my mates to take the plunge.

[Mr.Ed]

Maybe the 3 races before getting bumped to C should also have some sort of time frame to be done in as well... My next race meeting wil be my 3rd one but by then it will very likely have been 2+ years since my first meeting. The fact that haven't ridden AT ALL for almost 12 didn't make me any faster either let alone more experienced.

[Nelso]

Maybe the 3 races before getting bumped to C should also have some sort of time frame to be done in as well... My next race meeting wil be my 3rd one but by then it will very likely have been 2+ years since my first meeting. The fact that haven't ridden AT ALL for almost 12 didn't make me any faster either let alone more experienced.

Anything under two and a half minutes on the GP circuit would be considered good enough for C grade Ed. As I said, consider C as the bottom grade, because that's what the officials do. You will still be fast enough for C grade in Jan's eyes, no matter how slow you come back.

[Nelso]

When Leanne came back to racing, she hadn't raced in 10 years and she had to come back as a C grader. She did one race meet in the women's race and did a best of 1:44.0 and they put her up to B grade for this year. You seriously can't complain about going up to C grade if you are doing sub 1:50's.

[Phat3R]

When Leanne came back to racing, she hadn't raced in 10 years and she had to come back as a C grader. She did one race meet in the women's race and did a best of 1:44.0 and they put her up to B grade for this year. You seriously can't complain about going up to C grade if you are doing sub 1:50's.

I'm farked then ... that waz my first meet ... I just wanted to avoid breaking the bike again. I managed to finally break into the under 1:50's on the GP Circuit by the end of the Sunday ... and I run permanently up the back of the field ... so C 4 me 2??? Then I'm going to write to Jan to suggest Graheme, JC, Dan, Condor, Jashdown and Bob all be given a complimentary upgrade to A/B grade! :)
http://racing.natsoft.com.au/636625777/object_17146816.86U/Times?14

[chubb]

Little Mick got graded to C only after one meet at WP last year.

I did the same (4 hour) but stayed in D. Go figure.

[chubb]

.. so C 4 me 2??? Then I'm going to write to Jan to suggest Graheme, JC, Dan, Condor, Jashdown and Bob all be given a complimentary upgrade to A/B grade! :)
http://racing.natsoft.com.au/636625777/object_17146816.86U/Times?14

It is very possible they skip a grade due to their times if all in a perfect world.

[Mr.Ed]

To be honest, if I'm riding against other legit C graders, then I'm more than happy to move up even now before the 3rd race meeting... but the fact is, on my first race ever (St.George) a D grader was doing 35s on a R6. Pretty annoying if I get bumped to C and have something like that happen again.

[dan]

I'm farked then ... that waz my first meet ... I just wanted to avoid breaking the bike again. I managed to finally break into the under 1:50's on the GP Circuit by the end of the Sunday ... and I run permanently up the back of the field ... so C 4 me 2??? Then I'm going to write to Jan to suggest Graheme, JC, Dan, Condor, Jashdown and Bob all be given a complimentary upgrade to A/B grade! :)
http://racing.natsoft.com.au/636625777/object_17146816.86U/Times?14

I'm not even on that list!

[Phat3R]

To be honest, if I'm riding against other legit C graders, then I'm more than happy to move up even now before the 3rd race meeting... but the fact is, on my first race ever (St.George) a D grader was doing 35s on a R6. Pretty annoying if I get bumped to C and have something like that happen again.

Don't follow, which class was that 35s? The 600cc ABCD & 600cc Retro ABCD record is 1:36.0050R?
http://racing.natsoft.com.au/636625777/object_17146816.86U/Result?20

[Phat3R]

I'm not even on that list!

Oh you're on that list Dan ... I'll tell Jan not to be swayed by stories one race and broken bones or boxes of chocolates ... :) Hey was good to see you guys on Sun ... pity the weather was a washout.

[dan]

Oh you're on that list Dan ... I'll tell Jan not to be swayed by stories one race and broken bones or boxes of chocolates ... :) Hey was good to see you guys on Sun ... pity the weather was a washout.

Yeah was good to be out there seeing everyone. Weird being a spectator!

[Mr.Ed]

Don't follow, which class was that 35s? The 600cc ABCD & 600cc Retro ABCD record is 1:36.0050R?
http://racing.natsoft.com.au/636625777/object_17146816.86U/Result?20

Actually had to go back in time to check that out... and we're both wrong! ;)

I was wrong by quoting the wrong grade to right lap time (although a D grader lapping consistently in the 1:40 bracket is hardly fair but I digress)... the rider was actually a B grader, I reckon I was traumatized by his speed or it's simply that it's been so long now that my brain has already started working a more fancy version of the events! hahahaha

But how is this for a fastest lap time on that race?

http://racing.natsoft.com.au/636628590/object_8076320.86O/View?28

[Little Mick]

link not working Ed

[Marty]

The Natsoft links expire after x amount of time to make it harder for ppl like me to write program's to harvest the data.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Phat3R]

The Natsoft links expire after x amount of time to make it harder for ppl like me to write program's to harvest the data.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Yeah mine expired too ... well a picture is worth a thousand words ...

276

[Phat3R]

Anyway ... I think Nelso and others make some great points ... D Grade should be for new racers only ... and probably for ONLY their first race ... and it should be renamed it so it doesn't have the word grade in it. C Grade is where the real grades begin.

I look back on my first race weekend, and when asked by people how I went, my first answer was I survived, learned heaps and had great fun. If pushed I tell friends my best finish was 25th out of roughly 35ish (it's hard to see where the DNF's stop and the DNS's start). I say I broke into 1:13's for Nth Circuit and 1:50's for GP. I have no idea how I went in the D grade, but given it's grading / composition ... it's pretty irrelevant?

Maybe D Grade trophies should be seen like the gold star I got in kindie for not wetting my pants between recess and lunch ... at the time IT WAS an achievement ... but it's not something I put on my CV now.

[Apologies to Dan ... but I saw your 7th in qually on the second day as what I most remembered of your stellar performance over the weekend. Well along with some porn footage on how to hump a bike between T11/T12 :)]

[Marty]

Yeh Phat3R I see your point. I did my first race in round 3 at Wakey. I was more worried about passing scrutinieering than the races. My only goal was to make it through the day in one piece. I finished last in 2 races but couldnt have cared less. My next races were 5&6 with you guys and I was a million times more confident going into it (partly because EC is my home track tho), I didn't have the nerves. I set out to try and do better, which I think I did.

I've seen in some overseas racing they have the novices wear a fluro vest or displayed a P plate etc. I think that's a good idea because you don't know who your up against, maybe people would give a bit more space to a novice if they knew they were one. Also it's a little embarrassing so it encourages you not to want to be in D grade any longer than you need to be..

[Mr.Ed]

well a picture is worth a thousand words ...



Amen to that!!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-rSS41ocfnOU/UorHYU438BI/AAAAAAAABVg/kiYQFzlnnT8/w959-h820-no/StGeorge.jpg

[dan]

Anyway ... I think Nelso and others make some great points ... D Grade should be for new racers only ... and probably for ONLY their first race ... and it should be renamed it so it doesn't have the word grade in it. C Grade is where the real grades begin.

I look back on my first race weekend, and when asked by people how I went, my first answer was I survived, learned heaps and had great fun. If pushed I tell friends my best finish was 25th out of roughly 35ish (it's hard to see where the DNF's stop and the DNS's start). I say I broke into 1:13's for Nth Circuit and 1:50's for GP. I have no idea how I went in the D grade, but given it's grading / composition ... it's pretty irrelevant?

Maybe D Grade trophies should be seen like the gold star I got in kindie for not wetting my pants between recess and lunch ... at the time IT WAS an achievement ... but it's not something I put on my CV now.

[Apologies to Dan ... but I saw your 7th in qually on the second day as what I most remembered of your stellar performance over the weekend. Well along with some porn footage on how to hump a bike between T11/T12 :)]

I absolutely agree. My trophy is akin to an encouragement award and something to show my mates. I'm way more stoked about qualifying 7th and probably would have broken into 1.43s if I hadnt fucked my 5-6th shift on that lap.

D shouldnt be a grade as it confuses the issue. Rename D novice with the purpose to move people on to C grade. This is motorcycle racing and we are all adults - there doesnt need to be 12 trophies for each category.

[dan]

I've seen in some overseas racing they have the novices wear a fluro vest or displayed a P plate etc. I think that's a good idea because you don't know who your up against, maybe people would give a bit more space to a novice if they knew they were one. Also it's a little embarrassing so it encourages you not to want to be in D grade any longer than you need to be..

I think this is a great idea. No one wants to be the little bitch in fluro for longer than they are forced to be.

[DisPlaCeD]

Are you all serious?? F*ck me, if I could spend 10 years racing MX and only doing track days and CSS etc before I went road racing, to be better equipped when I made the change, who is anyone else to judge me, what, just because they are slower?? Seriously? Wake up. Now, back on topic... sounding like a bunch of whiney bitches...

[dan]

Are you all serious?? F*ck me, if I could spend 10 years racing MX and only doing track days and CSS etc before I went road racing, to be better equipped when I made the change, who is anyone else to judge me, what, just because they are slower?? Seriously? Wake up. Now, back on topic... sounding like a bunch of whiney bitches...

I'm not quite sure what part you are frustrated about in this discussion?

[Phat3R]

I'm not quite sure what part you are frustrated about in this discussion?

Soundz like a Tourettes attack, makes no sense to me either? I hope he's OK :-)

[Nelso]

Mitch Levy has been racing since 2008, Michael Blair, Callum Spriggs and Mark Bailey have raced since 2011, Grahame McCarthy was an A grader overseas. McCarthy did 4 races last year as a D grader and came back as a D grader this year despite doing a 1:40! Mitch Levy is still in C grade this year after racing for years and doing a 1:37's last year, yet Little Mick went up to C grade after doing 1:45's and Leanne went to B grade after doing 1:44's. The grading system is a fucking joke!

I'm all for renaming D grade as Novice, wearing newb vests and having no prizes as it will stop people like McCarthy from wanting to race in it.

Whatever they do, they need to sort it out, as the situation as it is now is pointless.

[chubb]

Mitch Levy has been racing since 2008, Michael Blair, Callum Spriggs and Mark Bailey have raced since 2011, Grahame McCarthy was an A grader overseas. McCarthy did 4 races last year as a D grader and came back as a D grader this year despite doing a 1:40! Mitch Levy is still in C grade this year after racing for years and doing a 1:37's last year, yet Little Mick went up to C grade after doing 1:45's and Leanne went to B grade after doing 1:44's. The grading system is a fucking joke!

I'm all for renaming D grade as Novice, wearing newb vests and having no prizes as it will stop people like McCarthy from wanting to race in it.

Whatever they do, they need to sort it out, as the situation as it is now is pointless.

This!!!

[Mr.Ed]

Mitch Levy has been racing since 2008, Michael Blair, Callum Spriggs and Mark Bailey have raced since 2011, Grahame McCarthy was an A grader overseas. McCarthy did 4 races last year as a D grader and came back as a D grader this year despite doing a 1:40! Mitch Levy is still in C grade this year after racing for years and doing a 1:37's last year, yet Little Mick went up to C grade after doing 1:45's and Leanne went to B grade after doing 1:44's. The grading system is a fucking joke!

I'm all for renaming D grade as Novice, wearing newb vests and having no prizes as it will stop people like McCarthy from wanting to race in it.

Whatever they do, they need to sort it out, as the situation as it is now is pointless.

Thank you. That is exactly how I feel about it. All they need to do is to fix the stupid gradings... but in order to do that, they have to do away with what seems to be the 'mates' system'! 'Cause that's the only explanation for the ridiculous gradings mentioned above.

[senator8]

Mitch Levy has been racing since 2008, Michael Blair, Callum Spriggs and Mark Bailey have raced since 2011, Grahame McCarthy was an A grader overseas. McCarthy did 4 races last year as a D grader and came back as a D grader this year despite doing a 1:40! Mitch Levy is still in C grade this year after racing for years and doing a 1:37's last year, yet Little Mick went up to C grade after doing 1:45's and Leanne went to B grade after doing 1:44's. The grading system is a fucking joke!

I'm all for renaming D grade as Novice, wearing newb vests and having no prizes as it will stop people like McCarthy from wanting to race in it.

Whatever they do, they need to sort it out, as the situation as it is now is pointless.

Yep, some sort of sick joke. It's beyond funny.
I started not even thinking about it now. I just want to get closer to the front (near the d graders) on the BMW and Pcra isn't graded.

[DisPlaCeD]

I'm not quite sure what part you are frustrated about in this discussion?

I'm frustrated with people having a whinge, over who is faster than them, with aforementioned parties, not being on this forum to defend themselves. Let's put it like this... Kev Curtin... been racing for decades, A grade rider, loses Yamaha sponsorship, gets an injury, puts him into the 1:50 bracket... by some people's theory on here, based on his prior experience, he should still be an A grader, but is lapping at D grade pace... what then? Hardly seems fair...

I figure, yep, people are faster than me in my grade... it will happen in every grade, deal with it. Try and go faster. As senator8 said, don't think about it, and go out and race!!

[dan]

That really sums it up. Completely ridiculous.

[Phat3R]

Thank you. That is exactly how I feel about it. All they need to do is to fix the stupid gradings... but in order to do that, they have to do away with what seems to be the 'mates' system'! 'Cause that's the only explanation for the ridiculous gradings mentioned above.

I honestly doubt it's any sort of conspiracy ... more a matter of resources ... there are only a few older members that appear to do the lions share of the admin for the club ... as volunteers and for nix ... and from the meetings I've attended they appeared to me to be flat out organising the great events they already put on across a wide range of MC disciplines ... maybe should put together a formal proposal for a change in grading along the lines discussed ... but from Rick's correspondence it seems to involve some other bodies too???

[dan]

I'm frustrated with people having a whinge, over who is faster than them, with aforementioned parties, not being on this forum to defend themselves. Let's put it like this... Kev Curtin... been racing for decades, A grade rider, loses Yamaha sponsorship, gets an injury, puts him into the 1:50 bracket... by some people's theory on here, based on his prior experience, he should still be an A grader, but is lapping at D grade pace... what then? Hardly seems fair...

I figure, yep, people are faster than me in my grade... it will happen in every grade, deal with it. Try and go faster. As senator8 said, don't think about it, and go out and race!!

I don't think that's what people are saying. If Kev Curtin is lapping 1.50s then he should be in D Grade (or whatever). I think the issue that is being discussed is people lapping 1.40s and being in D Grade where that is the speed of AB grade.

I'm also not taking what people are saying as having a go at riders, they are having a go at the system. Anything said is based on fact - Rider X laps at A Grade pace. Rider X has this much previous experience. Rider X is in D grade.

No one has an issue with someone being faster than another in a certain grade. When someone is in D Grade and is lapping at an A Grade pace the question must surely be why is that person in D Grade - otherwise what is the point of the grading system?

[Phat3R]

I'm frustrated with people having a whinge, over who is faster than them, with aforementioned parties, not being on this forum to defend themselves. Let's put it like this... Kev Curtin... been racing for decades, A grade rider, loses Yamaha sponsorship, gets an injury, puts him into the 1:50 bracket... by some people's theory on here, based on his prior experience, he should still be an A grader, but is lapping at D grade pace... what then? Hardly seems fair...

I figure, yep, people are faster than me in my grade... it will happen in every grade, deal with it. Try and go faster. As senator8 said, don't think about it, and go out and race!!

Your argument is self contradictory ... if the grades don't matter then KC won't care which grade he comes back in ... and if he does care ... why are we being accused of being whingers discussing something he apparently cares about ???

Complete logic fail.

[Phat3R]

If my reading glasses are not deceiving me same class ... so how can the Apr 8 1:34.6308R be eclipsed on Nov 3 with a 1:36.3390R. Is the record just for the meet or something ...

277


Amen to that!!
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-rSS41ocfnOU/UorHYU438BI/AAAAAAAABVg/kiYQFzlnnT8/w959-h820-no/StGeorge.jpg

[Mr.Ed]

So many tough questions in this thread... I need a nap

[Little Mick]

yes...

[dan]

Fuck, 1.34 is so fucking fast.

What does the 'Cap' column represent?

[Little Mick]

Mitch Levy has been racing since 2008, Michael Blair, Callum Spriggs and Mark Bailey have raced since 2011, Grahame McCarthy was an A grader overseas. McCarthy did 4 races last year as a D grader and came back as a D grader this year despite doing a 1:40! Mitch Levy is still in C grade this year after racing for years and doing a 1:37's last year, yet Little Mick went up to C grade after doing 1:45's and Leanne went to B grade after doing 1:44's. The grading system is a fucking joke!

I'm all for renaming D grade as Novice, wearing newb vests and having no prizes as it will stop people like McCarthy from wanting to race in it.

Whatever they do, they need to sort it out, as the situation as it is now is pointless.

Just for clarity purposes, I only achieved 1:45's and 44's this year in Rnd 1... Last year my race results were as follows:


Race your mates April - not counted as a proper race and not run under MA
Race your mates June - not counted as a proper race and not run under MA
FXRRC Rnd 2 - EC GP circuit - best lap time 1:57 - not run under MA
St George Rnd 3 - Wakefield - 1:09 - MA event (placed 2nd or 3rd in D grade 600 CS)
St George 4hr - Wakefield - 1:10 - MA event
Race your mates September - not counted as a proper race and not run under MA
Race you mates December - killed bike in Qualy - no race..not counted as a proper race and not run under MA...

So my results as you can see are far from stellar...yet as Nelso said, I was rewarded with C grade in November last year...

At the end of the day, it hasn't made much difference as this year I have predominently entered a 600 against 1000's.. grade aside, its an uphill battle to start with. Within FOz, there is also a supersport sub class where I compete as a D grader against people like Mick Lockhart and Grant Hay - A graders.

In FX, I am entered as a D grader, as per my lap times (with review from TON). D grade is one of the biggest fields and there are guys lapping in the 1:39's and better, but interestingly, we all seem to be ok with it out on the track.. we are out there competing...we just work towards improving..

I should point out, that a lot of the fast young guns who are C and D graders were only breaking into Road racing in the last year or 2...Brad Swallow, Callum Spriggs, Brayden Elliot etc... these guys were playing with us in RYM either last year or this year and have improved in leaps and bounds - mostly with a dirt track background..

I am at the point where grade is irrelevent anymore... Its nice to be competing against peers of similar speeds, but it won't stop me getting out there if its all over the place...

thought to ponder... how would you feel if there were no grades..just turn up and race...?

[Phat3R]

I am at the point where grade is irrelevent anymore... Its nice to be competing against peers of similar speeds, but it won't stop me getting out there if its all over the place...

thought to ponder... how would you feel if there were no grades..just turn up and race...?

They are so broken it's as if we don't have them anyway ... getting rid of them formally would make STGMC trophy presentations much faster and save the club $$$ on hunks of plastique.

Coming back to first principles; what is the point of having grades? Seriously what was the original intention of having them?

I note in WA that some classes are open to specific grades only ...


CLUBMAN CLASS (Entry Level)
An entry level class open to solo riders and machines from Novice, D Grade and C Grade. Primarily, this level is a fun class for riders new to racing or those with a little less experience than the A and B Grade riders.

http://mcrcwa.com.au/Competition/road-racing-classes.html

[Stu23]

you have to take in consideration that a lot of people kind of specialise at EC.. For grading and times etc, its better to see times from a number of circuits... to upgrade licences in the Uk you must compete at 4 different circuits and finish in the top 50% etc ( bit difficult here lol i know ) but theres wakey, and if your brave, Broadford !

[Phat3R]

Out of this interesting discussion there seems to me like a lot of confusion around a matter that should really be straightforward IMHO. This should all be written down, codified somewhere so it is transparent and everyone knows what is going on, as opposed to some sort of combined game of Chinese Whispers & Snakes and Ladders.

I had a look through MoMS ... surely grades are documented in there, if not why not, and where else would be more suitable? I searched on the word 'grade' ... it's only mentioned in Motocross, Speedway, Moto Trials and Minikhana sections. I was amazed, can someone else try it ... maybe my Mac doesn't work real good?

In the Minikhana section (the only one with detailed specifics of the grading documented IMHO ... rest of them appear to be black magic at the discretion of who knows ... ).
So Minikhana section has stuff like this:

26.5.1.7 After each interclub or Championship meeting competitors will be upgraded within the competitors class as follows:
(a) Riders who place 1st or 2nd overall in
C grade will be upgraded to B grade
within that class,
(b) Riders who place 1st overall in B
grade will be up graded to A grade within that Class,
(c) Riders who place 3rd overall in C grade or B grade will recieve 9 grading points,
(d) Riders who place 2nd overall in B grade will recieve 12 grading points,
(e) Once a rider accumulates 21 grading points they will be moved up one grade within that class. Once upgraded they will commence in the new grade with 0 grading points.


Makes sense to me ... If you're D grade and finish 1st for the meet then you straight to C grade for first race of next meet. Grading points accumulated for other places ... and published ... so transparent, everyone knows WTF is going on. Once you accumulate enough grading points then up you go.

Potentially there is an opportunity to codify what ever is going on in Road Racing grading in MoMS, so it's no longer at the discretion of Mr Nobody?

So how to suggest making an MA rule ... I guess adding a rule is a change??? ... flowchart and all ...
http://www.ma.org.au/index.php?id=138

[dan]

I didn't give any consideration to grading when I was racing the other weekend - I wanted a Top 10 finish against the whole field. I'm not overly fussed by it but if there is going to be grading system then it should work.

[dan]

I think grading has to be done on times though. You may be top of C but if the jump to B is 4 seconds then it doesn't seem appropriate. Especially if say 4 riders are battling and lapping within .5 of each other in C.

[Phat3R]

I think grading has to be done on times though. You may be top of C but if the jump to B is 4 seconds then it doesn't seem appropriate. Especially if say 4 riders are battling and lapping within .5 of each other in C.

IMHO times add an additional level of complexity to grading, for very little reward. Specific yo tracks, weather, bikes, etc, absolute times or relative to others?

If it's kept really simple and easy to calculate and administer it can work ... as soon as it turns into the black box handicap formula ... the club won't be able to work it out and administer it and it will devolve into current mess.

If your finishing at the top of your grade for a meet then it's probably time to move up, regardless of your time. Like finishing year 6, big skool awaits.

[Marshy]

I guess adding a rule is a change???

Yup. Even though there's a sub-committee allocated to the task, I reckon a well-drafted suggestion for a rule change is the best way to achieve said change. I'll assist if you wanna take the lead.... I'm already leading the charge to have the St George handicap rules changed.

[Mr.Ed]

Well, there's a simpler solution that I reckon would work regardless of weather/track/experience/etc... Just get the race results sheet, separate the top5 and split the rest of the field in 3!

For argument's sake let's say there were 35 riders, top5 will be A graders, next 10 B graders, next 10 C graders and the rest D graders. Do that for an entire year and in the end of the year just need to calculate the average to know what grade the rider deserves. Sure there'll be some ppl caught in between grades but then, and only then, you can check their lap times to see where those would fit better.

[dan]

I originally thought that was how it was done. A grade is those within X time of the fastest, B grade 5s (for example) behind that, C 5 behind that etc

[dan]

Actually that is different haha

[Marshy]

That only really works if everyone races at all races/events/rounds, and at the same time. Also it doesn't match and compare people from, say, St George with people from ASBK. Top 10 in St George is a different pace to top 10 in ASBK!

[Phat3R]

That only really works if everyone races at all races/events/rounds, and at the same time. Also it doesn't match and compare people from, say, St George with people from ASBK. Top 10 in St George is a different pace to top 10 in ASBK!

Which one are you referring to Nick? The suggestion from Ed or the Minikhana section from MoMS?

I thought the ranking was specific to the club races, and assessed differently for ASBK? It's obviously different in the FX to MA lic sanctioned events.

Probably regardless of which ... it sounds like we are back to using absolute times again to be able to compare across comps, which means back to complexity.

Anyone know much about the systems that are used for times and hence positions from the transponders, you'd need those times electronically for doing grades?

[Mr.Ed]

That only really works if everyone races at all races/events/rounds, and at the same time. Also it doesn't match and compare people from, say, St George with people from ASBK. Top 10 in St George is a different pace to top 10 in ASBK!

If you only do one race, tough luck... can't cater especially for a rider that only do one event a year. Also, if you're getting top5 in StGeorge and move to ASBK chances are you won't be riding bellow the top15 so you'd be riding on a grade too high for you which is better than what's happening atm. If you go from ASBK to St.George (does anyone actually start on ASBK?) and move to St.George you'll prob get bumped after the first event anyway.

[Phat3R]

Yup. Even though there's a sub-committee allocated to the task, I reckon a well-drafted suggestion for a rule change is the best way to achieve said change. I'll assist if you wanna take the lead.... I'm already leading the charge to have the St George handicap rules changed.

I'm happy to look into this, but gotta admit I feel a little uneasy taking the lead, as being a virgin D grader it could appear I am doing it solely to better my own position. Plus I'm new to the racing game and I am not putting my hand up as the know it all expert re grading or MC racing ... because I clearly know SFA!

The next club meet is this time next week 27th, so I will go along and ask some questions re grading from some of those that actually run the club. I'll take along the latest MoMS and ask about where the grading system is actually documented.

[Phat3R]

Yep, that sucks, Rick. Many people have experienced the same or similar situations. The email from StG is technically accurate but not really how it works. As I understand it, the club prepares the list and forwards it to the RR committee (which also has club members on the committee), who rubber stamp it. MNSW then send out the certificates.

MA voted earlier this year to 'review' the grading system. There were two people nominated to look into it. They will apparently report back next year sometime. There wasn't even a direction to come back with a proposal specifically.

Frankly, it's not rocket surgery. It should simply be based on objective, measurable criteria, NOT the current subjective, whimsical system of 'at the discretion of a club committee member'. There should simply be lap-time brackets for grades, possibly based on machinery. And there should be three grades, not four (VIC only has A, B, and C). Plus a Novice category. This whole 'level of experience' stuff is total crap! You should race against people of your speed, not your experience. Times from all races (AASA, or MA) are all online now, so it is easy to check times.

Novice: Never raced (in any form of motorsport!) before; you only a novice for 3 race meetings maximum, and you get moved up regardless after winning a Novice-class race meet - even if it's your first ever race meet. Novices race separately to everyone else, and are not split by capacity (all Novices race on track together, separately from other grades). This allows people that have just started to actually win a race by crossing the line first, which is something that will hook people for life (it did for me). You get regraded at the end of your 3 race meets into whichever grade you fit, based on laptimes.

C grade: Same as currently. Lap time bracket, say, 1:50+ at EC and equivalent at other tracks.

B grade: 1:40 to 1:50 at EC (and equivalent).

A grade: sub-1:40.

My $0.02

OK I have reread this thread, and after asking all the dumb questions, Nick's suggestion above looks the best goods.

Questins:

With respect to the times, should these be best times, average of best race, average of all laps for a meeting, something else?

How often for regrading, yearly, 6 months, post meet?

We would need a set of times for mapping to grades for all tracks StG do and ASBK race at?

Should the times be coded in the rules or at discretion of the club? To deal with wet weather at all race meets for year say?

If you race in StG and ASBK, who grades you with MA?

Sorry for more silly Q's.

[Little Mick]

Rick

a couple of minor deviations...

rather than a hard cut off , suggest allowing a 1-2 second range and a repeatability component. - also need to consider weapon of choice - eg 1:45 on a zx10 vs 1:45 on a 01 gsxr600 are 2 different abilities.. ( I think Jan does this in an informal way as the guys who went from D to C last year were predominently 600 riders, even though the 1000 riders were lapping faster)

Novice - as per Nicks

C grade - bring C grade down to consistently in the range of 1:45/1:48 and above
B grade - bring B grade down to consistently in the range of 1:38/1:40 through to 1:45/1:48
A grade - consistently below 1:38s

in reality, its no use ramping people up too fast as even by the suggestion above, an A grader could be at the rear of the A grade field in ASBK/ FX..

the intent should be some consistency across the levels of racing..unless you wanted to introduce a Club racing grade vs a National grade... but this would overwhelm the powers that be and implementors to the point that it would all be too hard and we would have a status quo....(In reality, St Geouge would only have to deal with the Club level- ASBK would deal with the national level which may require validation via MA, or if interstate people are entering club rounds, then some validation for that).


PS: by the above account, that would put me in B grade based on the results at the beginning of this year... I would definitely NOT class myself as a B grader... my last weekend would actually put me back to Novice...

Matt Fyffe who is a B grader from Victoria was in our garage on the weekend... he was running in the 1:39s- 1:42s....hasnt run GP circuit for a couple of years.. (GSXR600)

Rhino was into the 1:39s on Eds bike (ZX6R)
Displaced was around the 1:45-1:46s (ZX6R)
Mick Saliba was 1:44s-1:46s (R6)

[senator8]

I think you guys are missing the point a bit. Grading should be based on experience. Not just times. Times need to play a part, but I’ll come back to that. It’s about motivation and competing against your peers. My complaint and disappointment in the beginning was that I’d just started racing and the riders that had started at a similar time were not also moved.
EG; Dan, Marty, Bob, Saturnalian, Jashdown, Condor, Phat3r etc (sorry if I left you out – you get the picture) All have come in together and I’m sure would like to remain in the same game so to speak. Yes? I came in with Little Mick, Displaced, Skizzi and Cerby from Rats etc. During that time the times have swapped places between the guys I came in with and I’m sure the same will happen with the new group I mentioned.
Why should I have to compete against Kev Curtain, Phil Lovett etc in A grade just because I’ve improved. That would be more de-motivating than what happened to me in the first place. They are not my peers so to speak. Just like most other sports, schools clubs etc, it should be based on experience mostly. So my system is based around similar. You enter the system and move through it with riders of the same experience and if you’re a little ahead of the pack then you may skip a year and if you’re a little slower then you have the option of redoing a year.

I also think that grading should have some flexibility to be class based as well. All this is not as complicated as it sounds as the classes haven’t changed much at all for some time far as I can see. But again I’ll come back to this

I don’t think there is a need for novice races, but as we had at FXRRC last year. A one off novice race to kick the day off can’t hurt. (sort of a single race single round championship)

For the purpose of this system a year is Jan - Dec

Novice (D) grade
You are considered a D grader until you have completed (finished) 12 races or more by the end of a year. If you did not complete 12 races then you number of races completed can be rolled over to a second year only. Example – 3x race meetings, 10x races finished, 1x DNF, 1x DNS = starts the 2nd year with 10x races completed. Completes the 2nd year as a D grader.

C Grade
2 Years - or if your times are consistently in the top 30% of your class then 1 year. Example – rider comes in form D grade in 600s. In his now 2nd year of racing he is regularly finishing in the top 30% of the entire field. Then he will move to B Grade the following year. Regularly means 75% of the time. It’s no harder than drawing a line across the results for any race. Rider is either above or below it.

B Grade
This grade should be the longest stint and the class that has people move in and out of it as we start to get towards those that can, and those that probably won’t get a lot faster
2 Years - or if your times are consistently in the top 30% of your class then 1 year. Example – rider comes in from C grade in 1000s. In his now 3rd or 4th year of racing he is regularly finishing in the top 30% of the entire field. Then he will move to A Grade the following year. Regularly means 75% of the time. It’s no harder than drawing a line across the results for any race. Rider is either above or below it. Now if the B grader is regularly finishing below 50% of the field then the rider has the option of moving back to C Grade until he regularly finishes above 50% of the field in a year.

A Grade
The most experienced and fastest grade.
You become A grade after you have gone through the sytem and should now have a minimum of 3 years if your faster than the average or 5 years if you went through as per the grading system.
If your finishes are regularly below the top 30% of the field, then you have the option of dropping to B grade the following year or until you are above 30% of the field in which case you must move back up to A grade.

Class Grades
You may nominate to run a grade lower if it is your first year in that class but D grade cannot be nominated. Example – rider is a B grader in 600s and wants to try 1000s or go to 1000s the following season. In either case he has the option to compete in 1000s for the 1st year at a grade lower after which his Lic grade or normal grade requirements apply.

Other reasons you may change grades.
If a rider stops racing then the experience or time factor works in reverse. But no lower than C grade unless more than 5 year absence. Example – B grader completes 2 years then has a break. No racing for one year he come back as B grade and if his finishes and times dictate he will then keep going to A. If he takes a 2 year break he will come back as a 2nd year C grader etc

It’s only a rough, but it is a system I would be happy with and can be applied retrospectively to the existing grades. It evens out the results with some riders being faster only on one track etc I also think that it is fair and objective.

I may have also made some mistakes! I was trying to do as quickly as possible before work got the better of me.

[dan]

Someone who is good at excel could make a spreadsheet that pulls the info relatively painlessly, clips the outliers and takes an average of race pace that spits out into a workable list. That person is not me haha

[dan]

Or average finishing place..

[Little Mick]

I like Rick

[senator8]

I like Rick

:)

Let's put it under scrutiny, try and pick holes in it and see if it will stand up!

[Little Mick]

worth referencing lap record as starting point for super fast end of A grade?

[dan]

That seems like a pretty decent starting point. You are right about wanting to race in the same grade as the people you came in with.

[senator8]

worth referencing lap record as starting point for super fast end of A grade?

But for which class? I don't think it matters. The laps times are only relevant if outside the averages for your class.
One addition may be, if you run two or more classes. Your lic grade will be based on the class you completed the most races in (your main class). If two classes exactly the same then, your class with the best results. Again, only applicable if outside the average

[Little Mick]

But for which class? I don't think it matters. The laps times are only relevant if outside the averages for your class.
One addition may be, if you run two or more classes. Your lic grade will be based on the class you completed the most races in (your main class). If two classes exactly the same then, your class with the best results. Again, only applicable if outside the average

a guy who is at lap record on a 1000, will be up there on a 600 as well - but I was thinking about where does fast start... as you say, it only really applies when outside the average..

[Mr.Ed]

I like Rick's idea... only issue I see is that there are riders out there riding different classes on the same event. So if you're a B grader on a 1000 and decide to give the 600s a go as well how would you go about getting your grade back to C?? To me, that is also the whole problem with doing the grading based on laptimes. I reckon the experience idea is a valid one... but maybe remove the rest so it doesn't over complicate things.

[Little Mick]

and I want an age handicap and no weight handicap...J/K :)

so if I raced 6 races last year (including FX and St George but excluding RYM) then this year I would have remained a D grader... Next year I would be in C grade, even if I didnt race this year? (do you have to at least compete once in the year to progress? )....

then, as long as I remain around the midpoint of the C grade results, I will stay there until I get into the top 30% of C graders in the class 75% of the time. So if there are only 3 C graders in the class, and the boys are .5 sec/lap faster and always beat me - i.e. I get 3rd place regularly, then the first place getter would get bumped and ol' mate who came 2nd and I would stay in C grade for another year..

If I get better and finish infront of him the following year, then I can expect a bump...

the only real issue I see is sample size... ie- 3 racers in a grade vs 10 racers in a grade.. but again, not a biggie...

[Little Mick]

I like Rick's idea... only issue I see is that there are riders out there riding different classes on the same event. So if you're a B grader on a 1000 and decide to give the 600s a go as well how would you go about getting your grade back to C?? To me, that is also the whole problem with doing the grading based on laptimes. I reckon the experience idea is a valid one... but maybe remove the rest so it doesn't over complicate things.

TBH, I see a rider who rides a 1000 around the track as a B grader, doesnt get the option of rolling back to C if they jump on a 600... Rhino showed us why on the weekend....prime candidate for B grade me thinks :)

[Mr.Ed]

TBH, I see a rider who rides a 1000 around the track as a B grader, doesnt get the option of rolling back to C if they jump on a 600... Rhino showed us why on the weekend....prime candidate for B grade me thinks :)

Yep! And if he drops another second on either bike I'm sending him to A... hahahhaha

[Mr.Ed]

TBH, there has to be a contention plan for guys like Rhino... He's a D grader and does low 37s on a stock standard 10R with shagged tires and then jump on a 6R with stock brakes/suspension and does a loooong string of 39s. There has to be a way to skip him a grade or 2.

[Little Mick]

well they have his MX racing background....

[senator8]

It's a system. No arbitrary or subjective decisions.
Doesn't every rider deserve to be at the top of their grade if they are riding well? Isn't that the whole point. The reason for the averages is that once out of novice D grade over time the riders will end up with similar experienced riders and times. It's not against best times or track times which seem to be getting quicker. Then what change the cut off times? This is why it is averaged against the field you race in.

Ryan wouldn't be in D grade under this system and would be in B most likely after a fastrack year in C. Then if he still gets faster he can fight to get into A.

The field is basically broken into 3rds ABC, another reason for the averages.

[senator8]

I like Rick's idea... only issue I see is that there are riders out there riding different classes on the same event. So if you're a B grader on a 1000 and decide to give the 600s a go as well how would you go about getting your grade back to C?? To me, that is also the whole problem with doing the grading based on laptimes. I reckon the experience idea is a valid one... but maybe remove the rest so it doesn't over complicate things.

If you are racing for your grade championship. Occasional riders in a class do not change things. You might miss out on a round trophy. You can't account or try to pigeon hole everyone. He has the option of dropping a grade.

To put it into perspective. How does it compare with the current NO system? At least you know the rules and guidelines for grading and where you will be and who you will be up against.

[senator8]

and I want an age handicap and no weight handicap...J/K :)

so if I raced 6 races last year (including FX and St George but excluding RYM) then this year I would have remained a D grader... Next year I would be in C grade, even if I didnt race this year? (do you have to at least compete once in the year to progress? )....

then, as long as I remain around the midpoint of the C grade results, I will stay there until I get into the top 30% of C graders in the class 75% of the time. So if there are only 3 C graders in the class, and the boys are .5 sec/lap faster and always beat me - i.e. I get 3rd place regularly, then the first place getter would get bumped and ol' mate who came 2nd and I would stay in C grade for another year..

If I get better and finish infront of him the following year, then I can expect a bump...

the only real issue I see is sample size... ie- 3 racers in a grade vs 10 racers in a grade.. but again, not a biggie...

Good question Mick. As far as I am concerned RYM should be counted as racing. But to answer the basis of your question. If you did not race at all the following year and as such have not left D grade then you can re enter or repeat the year as you did not leave it. I suppose the rules would need to clarify this. You cannot go back to D grade once you have become C grade unless 5 years pass. In effect you are not a novice by definition.

[Mr.Ed]

How about a rule that would allow a rider to voluntarily move a grade up but not down? Of course this wouldn't be an automatic change but something that would be taken into consideration by whoever sets the grades based on laptimes/results against the field/experience and etc.

Reason I say that is 'cause the REALLY fast guys on the wrong grades usually say stuff like "I actually think I shouldn't be in this grade but they won't let me change it" I.e. Sean Condon on the race weekend I attached... him and his dad said they tried all they could to get him moved to A because it would be easier to find sponsorship and etc but got nowhere, that was not the only time I've heard that either. Michaelt from RATs said something similar as well as a few others.

[senator8]

That's easy. With rules and guidelines isn't it? If he fits within the grade averages for his field then he can apply to be moved up.

[Phat3R]

Wow some good ideas floating around there.

Some questions:

1. Re the earlier discussion about the likes of very fast riders in D/Novice such as JC or Graham, how will this address that? From what I read it may extend it?

2. Years are a tricky measure, what do you do in terms of counting when someone is off 6 months through injury ... does that count or not? Could we move away from years to race meets or races as that's what you are suggesting as the measurement for D grade, and it's good to have a consistent measurement stick?

3. Lap times are consistently in the top 30% of your class. I got your idea re consistent - 75%. But to be clear what exactly does top 30% of class means. I assume it's on a per race basis (you can't easily compare lap times consistently outside a race due to conditions).
On a class by class basis:
a. Lay out all the lap times from slowest to fastest, then calculate 30 the difference and add it to the fastest lap time as the cut off. Issue there is there may be some very slow laps due to mechanical issues.
b. Or just take the fastest lap time and multiply by 1.3 as the cut off.
c. Or get an average of all lap times within a race and use a multiplier on that to determine cut off?
d. Or top 30% of positions in a race ... very easy measurement, no lap times required and relative hence not weather dependent.

Sorry these probably sound like stoopid q's but somehow we need to write a very precise formula for MoMS. I think it's preferable to have specific codified rules with no need for discretion by officials, otherwise it can quickly devolve to current situation.


I think you guys are missing the point a bit. Grading should be based on experience. Not just times. Times need to play a part, but I’ll come back to that. It’s about motivation and competing against your peers. My complaint and disappointment in the beginning was that I’d just started racing and the riders that had started at a similar time were not also moved.
EG; Dan, Marty, Bob, Saturnalian, Jashdown, Condor, Phat3r etc (sorry if I left you out – you get the picture) All have come in together and I’m sure would like to remain in the same game so to speak. Yes? I came in with Little Mick, Displaced, Skizzi and Cerby from Rats etc. During that time the times have swapped places between the guys I came in with and I’m sure the same will happen with the new group I mentioned.
Why should I have to compete against Kev Curtain, Phil Lovett etc in A grade just because I’ve improved. That would be more de-motivating than what happened to me in the first place. They are not my peers so to speak. Just like most other sports, schools clubs etc, it should be based on experience mostly. So my system is based around similar. You enter the system and move through it with riders of the same experience and if you’re a little ahead of the pack then you may skip a year and if you’re a little slower then you have the option of redoing a year.

I also think that grading should have some flexibility to be class based as well. All this is not as complicated as it sounds as the classes haven’t changed much at all for some time far as I can see. But again I’ll come back to this

I don’t think there is a need for novice races, but as we had at FXRRC last year. A one off novice race to kick the day off can’t hurt. (sort of a single race single round championship)

For the purpose of this system a year is Jan - Dec

Novice (D) grade
You are considered a D grader until you have completed (finished) 12 races or more by the end of a year. If you did not complete 12 races then you number of races completed can be rolled over to a second year only. Example – 3x race meetings, 10x races finished, 1x DNF, 1x DNS = starts the 2nd year with 10x races completed. Completes the 2nd year as a D grader.

C Grade
2 Years - or if your times are consistently in the top 30% of your class then 1 year. Example – rider comes in form D grade in 600s. In his now 2nd year of racing he is regularly finishing in the top 30% of the entire field. Then he will move to B Grade the following year. Regularly means 75% of the time. It’s no harder than drawing a line across the results for any race. Rider is either above or below it.

B Grade
This grade should be the longest stint and the class that has people move in and out of it as we start to get towards those that can, and those that probably won’t get a lot faster
2 Years - or if your times are consistently in the top 30% of your class then 1 year. Example – rider comes in from C grade in 1000s. In his now 3rd or 4th year of racing he is regularly finishing in the top 30% of the entire field. Then he will move to A Grade the following year. Regularly means 75% of the time. It’s no harder than drawing a line across the results for any race. Rider is either above or below it. Now if the B grader is regularly finishing below 50% of the field then the rider has the option of moving back to C Grade until he regularly finishes above 50% of the field in a year.

A Grade
The most experienced and fastest grade.
You become A grade after you have gone through the sytem and should now have a minimum of 3 years if your faster than the average or 5 years if you went through as per the grading system.
If your finishes are regularly below the top 30% of the field, then you have the option of dropping to B grade the following year or until you are above 30% of the field in which case you must move back up to A grade.

Class Grades
You may nominate to run a grade lower if it is your first year in that class but D grade cannot be nominated. Example – rider is a B grader in 600s and wants to try 1000s or go to 1000s the following season. In either case he has the option to compete in 1000s for the 1st year at a grade lower after which his Lic grade or normal grade requirements apply.

Other reasons you may change grades.
If a rider stops racing then the experience or time factor works in reverse. But no lower than C grade unless more than 5 year absence. Example – B grader completes 2 years then has a break. No racing for one year he come back as B grade and if his finishes and times dictate he will then keep going to A. If he takes a 2 year break he will come back as a 2nd year C grader etc

It’s only a rough, but it is a system I would be happy with and can be applied retrospectively to the existing grades. It evens out the results with some riders being faster only on one track etc I also think that it is fair and objective.

I may have also made some mistakes! I was trying to do as quickly as possible before work got the better of me.

[Little Mick]

position in grade per race, not lap times rick

[Phat3R]

Being cross entered for 600 and 600CS for RJays Rnd 5 & 6 I started and completed 12 races over the weekend, well maybe only 11 re R18 ... (along with several others), so it would be C grade for me next year. I'm actually cool with that, wondered what others thought? Note under this suggestion Dan who is much faster than me would still be D grade all next year?

Seems like there should be a mechanism to allow riders in a lower grade to put themselves up a grade so they can stay with their peers, regardless of circumstance?

Dan (or anyone else in a similar position) if that were an option would you want to go up to C or stay in D for the rest of the year?

[Phat3R]

position in grade per race, not lap times rick

OK so 3.d. I like, keeps it simple.

There was conflicting terminology in there, so I want to be clear. Rick also mentioned lap times were important and that he would get to them, but didn't.

C Grade
2 Years - or if your times are consistently in the top 30% of your class then 1 year.

I realise what he's written is a brain dump in short time, it's a brilliant starter, I wanted to just clarify what we all mean.

[senator8]

Yep, was definitely a brain dump. I know a few of my uses of terminology are ambiguous.
I'll try and tidy up tonight and clear a few questions up, as well as run through a few scenarios.

[senator8]

Rick, yes you would be a c grader according to the system. Keep in mind Pcra only did 10 races or something the whole year over 4 race meetings, so a line has to be drawn somewhere.

As for 6mths off due to injury. I'll give it some thought, but my first reaction is if you've completed 6 or more races for the year then you have competed. It has to be years not races. Grading will be calculated and done at the same time end of season every year. Again a line somewhere

[dan]

Being cross entered for 600 and 600CS for RJays Rnd 5 & 6 I started and completed 12 races over the weekend, well maybe only 11 re R18 ... (along with several others), so it would be C grade for me next year. I'm actually cool with that, wondered what others thought? Note under this suggestion Dan who is much faster than me would still be D grade all next year?

Seems like there should be a mechanism to allow riders in a lower grade to put themselves up a grade so they can stay with their peers, regardless of circumstance?

Dan (or anyone else in a similar position) if that were an option would you want to go up to C or stay in D for the rest of the year?

If I can learn to get my bike off the line I might haha

[dan]

Being cross entered for 600 and 600CS for RJays Rnd 5 & 6 I started and completed 12 races over the weekend, well maybe only 11 re R18 ... (along with several others), so it would be C grade for me next year. I'm actually cool with that, wondered what others thought? Note under this suggestion Dan who is much faster than me would still be D grade all next year?

Seems like there should be a mechanism to allow riders in a lower grade to put themselves up a grade so they can stay with their peers, regardless of circumstance?

Dan (or anyone else in a similar position) if that were an option would you want to go up to C or stay in D for the rest of the year?

Seriously though, yeah I'd go up to C. D has to be renamed NOVICE though ;)

On a side note, Clubsport qualifying on the Sunday broken down like this - make of it what you will:

1. D grade
2. AB
3. AB
4. AB
5. AB
6. D
7. D
8. D
9. C
10. C

[dan]

Question - so grading would only be taken off race positions under this system - not qualifying right?

[senator8]

Question - so grading would only be taken off race positions under this system - not qualifying right?

Grading only applies to experience. Qualifying is not counted for anything.
Times are only used if you are in the top or bottom 30% of your field for 75% or more of your races.

[senator8]

The calculations are quite simple the calculating not so simple manually. I simple program or spreadsheet is probably the only way. Still a simple task compared to working out handicaps :)

[dan]

Do I dare ask how they work out handicaps?

[Little Mick]

asking is not an issue... clear response that is repeatable :) harder task...

It is actually as per the regs, but is confusing in a lot of ways the way its worded...

[Mr.Ed]

Grading only applies to experience. Qualifying is not counted for anything.
Times are only used if you are in the top or bottom 30% of your field for 75% or more of your races.

Yep, I like this. It also eliminates the danger of getting great one-off laps (i.e. following a faster rider) and being bumped a grade.

[Nelso]

Seriously though, yeah I'd go up to C. D has to be renamed NOVICE though ;)

On a side note, Clubsport qualifying on the Sunday broken down like this - make of it what you will:

1. D grade
2. AB
3. AB
4. AB
5. AB
6. D
7. D
8. D
9. C
10. C

If Rick's system were to be used, the top two positions would be D graders, as Leanne would still be in D grade. 10 years since racing and only one race meet would mean she would have started and stayed in D grade. Do you think it is really fair to have Rich and Dan up against her and Grasshopper in D grade?

[Little Mick]

good point - returning riders should be a C as minimum..

[senator8]

If Rick's system were to be used, the top two positions would be D graders, as Leanne would still be in D grade. 10 years since racing and only one race meet would mean she would have started and stayed in D grade. Do you think it is really fair to have Rich and Dan up against her and Grasshopper in D grade?

Is it fair the way it is now? There will always be exceptions. Finer details to account for different scenarios like Leanne's can still be catered for. Maybe she doesn't have to return to D grade. Maybe she returns to C grade and will be bumped to B after the first year because she is running in the top 30% of the field consistently?

[Nelso]

Is it fair the way it is now?

No it's not. I didn't mean to insult your idea, I was merely pointing out one of the situations that your idea wouldn't work for. I think coming back as a C grader no matter how long you have been away is a better idea as you already know race-craft and how to start and just need to find your corner speed again and you're back in the mix, whereas a genuine D grader shouldn't have any of those skills. Keith Greentree hadn't raced for 5 years and raced the last round of St George and won C grade on both days easily. Graham McCarthy is a perfect example of why an ex A grader should never be put in D grade. I just don't know how they did it last year and then again this year.:doh:

The biggest problem with the system now is the fact that you have Terry O'Neil doing his own thing and MA doing another. Little Mick admitted that TON put him back to D grade for his races despite MA giving him a C grading. So MA think D grade is only there for absolute beginners, where as TON thinks someone doing 1:06's and 1:44's is a D grader. Mark Weaver raced a few FX rounds and one St George round, then (the next year) competed at St George as a D grader (again) doing 1:39's because there is no communication between AASA and MA. If you look at the majority of riders that are in the wrong grade, you will find that most of them race FX and that is what needs to be fixed more than anything else.

I also think that RYM should be included as racing as you are learning starts, passing etc, just like 'real' racing.

[senator8]

All good mate, I wasn't insulted and anyone else who thinks my answers have been a bit short. Been typing all day on my phone in between things and thus truncating the replies if possible. It's just a alternative idea to bang about that I've had in my head for ages.

[Little Mick]

The biggest problem with the system now is the fact that you have Terry O'Neil doing his own thing and MA doing another. Little Mick admitted that TON put him back to D grade for his races despite MA giving him a C grading. So MA think D grade is only there for absolute beginners, where as TON thinks someone doing 1:06's and 1:44's is a D grader. Mark Weaver raced a few FX rounds and one St George round, then (the next year) competed at St George as a D grader (again) doing 1:39's because there is no communication between AASA and MA. If you look at the majority of riders that are in the wrong grade, you will find that most of them race FX and that is what needs to be fixed more than anything else.

I also think that RYM should be included as racing as you are learning starts, passing etc, just like 'real' racing.

Not sure I agree thats the problem Rob. If TON just went off the MA grades it would be guaranteed to be broken... TON gave me the option and based on the times the C graders were doing (not just 1 or 2 but a large proportion of them) - I fit more appropriately into D grade. If I went to ASBK, I would be D grade, if I would be allowed to compete at all 'cause I aint fast enough...

Chrispy ran 1:41s at wacky "* Edit: this should say EC" and was miles behind the rest of the 600 field at the EC asbk round this year (he was on a triumph 675) and did 1:03 or so in May at wacky.. (he also did a 1:35.7 at EC on his panagale a few weeks ago...) - Chris is a C grader (MA grade)....

Here are the results from the last round of FX600 2012 at EC - full circuit

http://computime.com.au/meetings/2012/FX6/FX12_6_R27.pdf

Mick Lockhart - C grade - 1:58.8
Callum Spriggs - D grade - 1:59.5
Josh McGragh - D grade - 1:58.9
Mick Blair - C Grade - 1:59.1
Aiden Wagner - D grade - 1:58.9
Alex Penklis - D Grade - 2:07.4

In some of these cases, this was the first year in FX and possibly road racing. Some may have raced in MX (so under an MA licence) so data should have been available with MA at least and their licence should have carried over?

Penko is no slouch but these guys are a different level of speed...


Note - This year - Callum Spriggs and Mick Blair are both B graders, and Mick Lockhart is an A grader...

If the MA grades were correct - this whole issue wouldnt be one..

[Phat3R]

Another silly question ... thought experiment ...

What if a rider could just chose their own grade for a meet (lets say other than say Novice/D)? Aren't the prizes considerably better for higher grades? Wouldn't you chose the grade you thought you had the best chance of winning the most expensive prize? It first prize in A was $1000, B was $100 and C was $10 and you where JC or Graham which grade would you chose to race in? If you were fresh out of D which grade would you chose?

[Little Mick]

what prize money?

remember the intent of the grades... any prizes would be aligned with past the post results if deemed appropriate, but most are championship based and its more about consistency

[Stu23]

Anyone racing in ASBK or FX 600's should have a requirement of being an A grade or B grade minimum... This is the Countries premier racing yes !

You don't get Novices or C graders running around in BSB, its kinda silly

D and C and some B is where a good reasonable to high level CLUB racer should be

The whole thing is hmmm broken !

[Mr.Ed]

In an ideal world, yes... but I don't think there are enough A graders to make up the grids.

[Stu23]

D graders running around doing 1:36s etc are not D graders are they ... this is my point really :) they should be A / B and this should be mandatory for ASBK and FX600 ...... Depends on which organisation has the balls to put grading and safety 1st instead of there bottom line

[Phat3R]

what prize money?

OK so no prize money per race meet then, told you I know SFA. FYI having a look through MoMS some of the other areas like flat track (I recall) have a clause in there that if you beat a rider of higher grade you get the higher grades, higher prize money, but I digress.

So the prizes are for the whole year of racing, and so the riders grade is locked down for that period ... ie the Championship ...

But same thing goes ... if the D grade prize was just a token prize (ie a plastic cup and a $10 voucher) and the A grade prize was something flash (say a MC) and there were prizes for the other grades two that were in between, why would you want to race in a lower class when you could race a higher one and win bigger prizes and more prestige? There is a trade off between your chance of winning something and how much you win, but now using incentives to allow the individual to decide their grade for the year. OK there could be some restrictions in terms of what you can chose, but it's not like there is some sort of safety aspect here ... they let all the grades out on track at the same time.

In the end people seem to feel they are in too higher grade, too lower grade, "I should be in this or that ... blah, blah" ... fine run the grade you want, that you think you should be in. If you want to clean up C grade and win some plastique and $10, fine, but your equally as fast companions will be in A grade winning bigger hunks of plastique and more serious prizes. Slower riders will not bother with higher grades as they would have no chance of winning, so they would kick down to a level they either have a chance, or there is no lower grade.

Might take a few years to sort out are various types try and game it ... but too much down grading by faster riders to B & C and there is an opportunity for slow riders if they chose a grade above them and walk away with prizes others have left on the table, because they chose lower grades than they are capable of running.

Also fills the criteria of allowing peers to stick together somewhat ... should they want to ... but there is a counter argument there. I see myself as a new slow C grader ... someone like Dan could possibly do very well in B grade. Still means we can race one another (ie Dan can ride past me like I am standing still :) ), but I don't think the system should hold Dan back for a series of races if he's capable of competing in the higher grade with riders that should be faster.

Another aspect here is that there is now self accountability ... riders can't complain that a grade was foisted upon them, they chose it, they can now explain to their peers and others why when asked.

Remember I'm just brainstorming here ... that's typically part A of problem solving. Yes I have a preference for market based solutions rather than imposing sets of complex rules to guide behaviours.

All comments welcomed ... well other than pure negativity, well ... maybe "it's just stupid" is OK?.


remember the intent of the grades... any prizes would be aligned with past the post results if deemed appropriate, but most are championship based and its more about consistency

There have been multiple interpretations of the intent of grades expressed in this thread, which one are you referring to Mick?

[Baddie]

Hold the phone 166+ entries...I'm guessing there's a few issue's with the handicap system.
Its a shame we don't have a St George board member on this forum that could make comment's..:plane:

[Phat3R]

Hold the phone 166+ entries...I'm guessing there's a few issue's with the handicap system.
Its a shame we don't have a St George board member on this forum that could make comment's..:plane:

It's turned into a rolled together handicap / grading thread ... probably my bad.

Who's the StG bored memba? :)

[Phat3R]

Found this for ACU on how the poms do grading. Well I think those are grades?

280

http://www.acu.org.uk/Uploaded/1/Documents/2013-licences/2013-ACU-Competition-Form-Road-Race-Notes2.pdf

[Marshy]

Aren't they licence types, not grades?

[Little Mick]

Wow..so much to catch up on


Some randoms....

if only A&B would be allowed to compete in FX /ASBK- then where are they? look at the numbers in ASBK? there were 50 odd at rnd 6 - in total... its costs $$ to go racing. I know 2 A graders near me that were at the front of the game, but without the $$ they have had to sit out the year..

if we had multiple tracks and $$ to go racing, then there would be a fair amount of focus on fixing this and in a way it would tend to sort itself out..MX is very popular in Aus - not sure they have the same issues?

even if a St G memember was on the forum, they would not be able to respond on behalf of the club as its discussion and decision by committee. The best you could hope for is they understood your concerns. As members, we all have the right and opportunity to rock up to the meetings and table our concerns and issues (and suggestions) as Nick and Rick are doing.

IMHO, the intent of the grades is to endeavour to provide similar capability competition... Safety does come into it, but its more about like for like competitors.. There will also be someone who is new coming into it and faster than the pack..hell look at MM... and there are also people who find their mojo through a season and go forward in leaps and bounds...Senator, Chrispy, Rhino, etc

I like the idea of different levels of licences, but again, is the industry big enough here?

Need to take a step back and see how we grow the sport- sure there may be a few that are after the "prize money"-- there were 3 entries in total for the FX500 - $100000 prize money.. No takers? Most people didnt see themselves with a chance so didnt enter...

racing for prize money is flawed as the kitty isnt big enough to cover the cost... its all about sponsorship and exposure..

My notes above have gone all over the place so suggest we get back to point - is the anything fundamentally flawed with Senators Format? lets try to break it to confirm it holds water? add something for the anomolies and aliens? document it and present it?

[Stu23]

they are the same thing Nick

[Stu23]

I left the Uk with my National licence, didnt bother with the International ! lol

[Phat3R]

I found the AMA grading system too, for more ideas ... just at the beginning ... again they seem to use licenses as the English do, which kinda translates to grades here.

http://amaproracing.cdn.racersites.com/assets/AMAPro-RR-2013-Rulebook.pdf
[As an aside ... I notice the specifically ban intravenous re hydration ... if it's not banned under ASBK ... could be a boost if racing in Darwin]

[Marshy]

First thing I noticed was that they require every rider/team to have a CB radio to listen for all the race control directions!! Tops idea!

[dan]

First thing I noticed was that they require every rider/team to have a CB radio to listen for all the race control directions!! Tops idea!

Oath. Or they could turn the speakers up / put speakers in the garages.

[Little Mick]

radios are a great concept.. we had them when racing Nascar...even if they were rented out from the timing guys like transponders, it would be handy..

[Phat3R]

Canadian race license system ... chapter 2 classification of riders ... again similar to the AMA and UK ...

281

[Nelso]

Not sure I agree thats the problem Rob. If TON just went off the MA grades it would be guaranteed to be broken... TON gave me the option and based on the times the C graders were doing (not just 1 or 2 but a large proportion of them) - I fit more appropriately into D grade. If I went to ASBK, I would be D grade, if I would be allowed to compete at all 'cause I aint fast enough...

Chrispy ran 1:41s at wacky "* Edit: this should say EC" and was miles behind the rest of the 600 field at the EC asbk round this year (he was on a triumph 675) and did 1:03 or so in May at wacky.. (he also did a 1:35.7 at EC on his panagale a few weeks ago...) - Chris is a C grader (MA grade)....

Here are the results from the last round of FX600 2012 at EC - full circuit

http://computime.com.au/meetings/2012/FX6/FX12_6_R27.pdf

Mick Lockhart - C grade - 1:58.8
Callum Spriggs - D grade - 1:59.5
Josh McGragh - D grade - 1:58.9
Mick Blair - C Grade - 1:59.1
Aiden Wagner - D grade - 1:58.9
Alex Penklis - D Grade - 2:07.4

In some of these cases, this was the first year in FX and possibly road racing. Some may have raced in MX (so under an MA licence) so data should have been available with MA at least and their licence should have carried over?

Penko is no slouch but these guys are a different level of speed...


Note - This year - Callum Spriggs and Mick Blair are both B graders, and Mick Lockhart is an A grader...

If the MA grades were correct - this whole issue wouldnt be one..

Sounds to me like all of these guys except Penko should be A and B graders, not C and D. I also think anyone racing ASBK should be an A or B grader and FX should only be eligible to A, B and C graders. The only place for D graders should be in club racing so they can learn in a supportive, fun environment. Why aren't these fast guys all regraded into the appropriate grades by ASBK and FX? Why is it that someone doing 1:36's at EC is still considered a C or D grader by ASBK and FX promoters? This just adds to my contempt of the system that's in place when you have clubs that have been around for decades trying to do it one way and two self centred promoters doing it a completely different way to suit themselves.

[Nelso]

D graders running around doing 1:36s etc are not D graders are they ... this is my point really :) they should be A / B and this should be mandatory for ASBK and FX600 ...... Depends on which organisation has the balls to put grading and safety 1st instead of there bottom line

Bingo.:clap:

[senator8]

The reason that FX and ASBK won't ever or anytime soon exclude anyone is they don't have enough on the grids of the premier classes already.
Last round ASBK had around 50 entries total.
This weekend at PI with the V8s there is 6 of them in total. Check natsoft yourself. It's embarrassing for the sport to say the least.

[Mr.Ed]

Yes but how much of that is because of the frustration caused by the lack of clear rules and guidelines? 6 riders on a race that will have live national coverage is strange to say the least... I seriously don't believe that the reason the grid is so small is because we don't have enough ppl in the sport. Just check any grid on FOz or clubsport and you'll see the punters are out there.

[senator8]

Too many rules you mean. We are off on another tangent here. But both classes you mentioned mine and many others bikes are technically eligible for by way of modifications. The hobbyist, clubmen, enthusiast etc want to build/customise and race their bike. Clubman subclass for privateers in the majors with a fair grading system and you have a winner ;)
Maybe

[Little Mick]

interesting that it appears to be ASBK and FX that are to blame for not regrading/ reclassifying people... unfortunately, This is about the MA grading and technically, the promotor can make recommendations for changes, but it is up to MA to follow them through... now the dilemma... FX gets criticised for letting people nominate an alternate class (doesn't mean it is accepted automatically, but people can raise it if they feel they should be higher or lower) and not adhering to the MA allocation.. seems contradictory to me...

In the case I detailed above, it is obvious that the fast guys were regraded to the appropriate grade this year. So it does happen, but maybe the issue is that people are entered in a grade at the beginning of the year and for championship reasons, are kept in that grade for the duration of the year.

if championships were not at stake (and any specific prizes associated with the championships like wr250s etc) then mid year regrading wouldnt be an issue...

What about this.... regardings happen through the year so on a round basis, there is more parity. For championship points tho, the grade you are at the beginning of the year is where you round points get credited towards...

example
a rider starts as aC grader at beginning of the year... after 2 rounds of a 5 round championship they get bumped to B grade (for the reasons above that they are outclassing the competition).

for round 1 and 2 - they compete as C grader.
for rounds 3 to 5 - they compete as B grader for the round points.

as far as championship perspective, they are competing in the C grade championship for that year as that is the grade they were at the beginning of the year...
so they are not penalised for improving through the yearand the rest of the C graders are competing for round outcomes like for like..
With the racer who has been bumped, racing against the B graders will mean he will have tougher competition and thus not get as many points as maybe the C graders so the Chapionship is still open..

[Phat3R]

interesting that it appears to be ASBK and FX that are to blame for not regrading/ reclassifying people... unfortunately, This is about the MA grading and technically, the promotor can make recommendations for changes, but it is up to MA to follow them through... now the dilemma... FX gets criticised for letting people nominate an alternate class (doesn't mean it is accepted automatically, but people can raise it if they feel they should be higher or lower) and not adhering to the MA allocation.. seems contradictory to me...

In the case I detailed above, it is obvious that the fast guys were regraded to the appropriate grade this year. So it does happen, but maybe the issue is that people are entered in a grade at the beginning of the year and for championship reasons, are kept in that grade for the duration of the year.

if championships were not at stake (and any specific prizes associated with the championships like wr250s etc) then mid year regrading wouldnt be an issue...

What about this.... regardings happen through the year so on a round basis, there is more parity. For championship points tho, the grade you are at the beginning of the year is where you round points get credited towards...

example
a rider starts as aC grader at beginning of the year... after 2 rounds of a 5 round championship they get bumped to B grade (for the reasons above that they are outclassing the competition).

for round 1 and 2 - they compete as C grader.
for rounds 3 to 5 - they compete as B grader for the round points.

as far as championship perspective, they are competing in the C grade championship for that year as that is the grade they were at the beginning of the year...
so they are not penalised for improving through the yearand the rest of the C graders are competing for round outcomes like for like..
With the racer who has been bumped, racing against the B graders will mean he will have tougher competition and thus not get as many points as maybe the C graders so the Chapionship is still open..

Interesting idea ... I had reservations about only reclassifying every 12 months, but could see why it was done ... that solves the problem.

With that in mind. Could we look at providing a rider that fits into that 30% of top of field over a round, the option of moving up a grade next round. They don't have to take it, but they will quickly get into the grouping of riders their skills are closest aligned to. Note it's not experience based ... but some people are faster at gaining experience and able to go faster than others over the same period.

[Nelso]

The way it used to happen was the rider would get bumped up mid season and take whatever points they had accrued so far in the season into the new class with them. Leanne said the grading system worked so much better back in the 90's than the clusterfuck that is happening now. There were also much bigger grids and far more race meets back then, so maybe there is a connection between the broken system we have now and the lower numbers.

[Mr.Ed]

Too many rules you mean. We are off on another tangent here. But both classes you mentioned mine and many others bikes are technically eligible for by way of modifications. The hobbyist, clubmen, enthusiast etc want to build/customise and race their bike. Clubman subclass for privateers in the majors with a fair grading system and you have a winner ;)
Maybe

This!

Imagine a perfect world where you would have ppl on their right grades so you could have a SBK class where AB riders comply to superstock rules and CD have free mods... it's up to the rider to decide if he wants to invest on a bike that will make him faster but then get bumped a grade and lose the edge he had on the AB riders and etc. One can dream, hey...

[Marshy]

The way it used to happen was the rider would get bumped up mid season and take whatever points they had accrued so far in the season into the new class with them. Leanne said the grading system worked so much better back in the 90's than the clusterfuck that is happening now. There were also much bigger grids and far more race meets back then, so maybe there is a connection between the broken system we have now and the lower numbers.

Agreed! I got bumped mid-season, and it was no big deal. There was much more emphasis on getting people quickly and fairly into the right grade for their speed, rather than let them have a year (or two) doing 37s in D grade.....

[dan]

When I grow up I want to be a 1.37 D Grader haha

[Little Mick]

First thing I noticed was that they require every rider/team to have a CB radio to listen for all the race control directions!! Tops idea!

Agree with you Nick... if you are getting the results repeatedly, whether in times or places, then getting bumped shouldnt be an issue

[chubb]

When I grow up I want to be a 1.37 D Grader haha


not for you C grade next year

[dan]

not for you C grade next year

Seems like a done deal. I'll sit on the porch with my crutches waiting for the magic letter from St George.

[Mr.Ed]

Nah... the thing is, there's no rule. You may just be in D for another 3 years.

[Marshy]

I hear that bribes are gratefully accepted..... ;)

[Phat3R]

Nah... the thing is, there's no rule. You may just be in D for another 3 years.

Or you may be an A, B or C grader ... just spin the lucky wheel of club grading :)

[dan]

I'm just waiting for them to start getting really creative and come up with AC / BC / AD mix up grades

[Little Mick]

So Rick B,

do you have enough info to draft a set of rules for submission based on all our banter and suggestions ?

I think there is a solid piece there to get a draft around for review prior to submission... The sooner it gets infront of the committee then MA the bettererer...

Bottom line is it may not make it into the regs till 2015 so that the appropriates can get a say...so for most of us, we will more than likely be in the appropriate corresponding grades by then, but the newcomers will still benefit.

[Phat3R]

So Rick B,

do you have enough info to draft a set of rules for submission based on all our banter and suggestions ?

I think there is a solid piece there to get a draft around for review prior to submission... The sooner it gets infront of the committee then MA the bettererer...

Bottom line is it may not make it into the regs till 2015 so that the appropriates can get a say...so for most of us, we will more than likely be in the appropriate corresponding grades by then, but the newcomers will still benefit.

Hi Mick,

I wasn't intending on wrapping this up yet. I'm intending to attend the StG fortnightly meeting on Wed next week where I want to discuss the current grading system with club officials, find out who looks after it and how amenable they are to change and discussion. I thought I would bring back those learning to TT & this thread. As you say it's unlikely to make it into 2014 ... so I see no reason to hurry this along yet ... but I'll ask at the meeting about time lines and club discretion ...

I'd prefer to really socialise this topic, before doing the submission, I'm willing to bet that the better it is socialised the better the chance that it has of being finally adopted in part or whole.

I'd like to chuck it over onto RATs to get all the feedback from those that don't do TT, as well as maybe get some contact with the sub committee of MA that's looking at this too?

Sorry I'm guessing we would all like this done yesterday ... but my experience with these sorts of changes from other types of clubs I belong to suggests that socialisation, and getting as much of the opinions as possible of those that are involved will help it along.

As a summary though;
I think we have some well progressed ideas around Grade D, and who can and cannot be in the class.
There is still a lot of debate with respect to time frame between grading ... ranging from mine of per event, to Nelso and Marshy talking about the previous 6 months, with some difference with respect to your point about where the points go, to yours intra year, to Rick's of per year / years.
There's still some difference of opinion around the purpose of grading ... ranging from remaining with your peers within reason, to safety to experience to skills to times.
I didn't get any feedback re my laissez faire suggestion, so I'm guessing no one here is interested in that one, (which I find interesting).

So I'm thinking of maybe after discussions mentioned above to putting together a range of grading rules, that encompass different peoples views and opinions and perhaps putting them to the vote on the forums?

What say ye?

[Nelso]

Did you also know, you can be a B grader in NSW and travel to Victoria for the first time and compete as a D grader? Sophie Lovett competes as a B grader in NSW, C in Victoria and a D grader in Queensland. Oh, what a wonderful system we have!

The first thing you need to do is get all parties involved to agree to coordinate their grading so that they actually mean something. PCRA, St George, ASBK and FX all think D grade mean completely different things, so the first thing to do is get the different bodies together. There's no point adjusting St George's policies if the rest just keep on doing whatever they want.

[Little Mick]

agree with oyur thoughts Rick.. how do we eat an elephant... cant fix it all in one swoop, but if St G are open to trialing it.. then maybe, just maybe, the others may be willing to as well if it seems plausible?

[Phat3R]

Did you also know, you can be a B grader in NSW and travel to Victoria for the first time and compete as a D grader? Sophie Lovett competes as a B grader in NSW, C in Victoria and a D grader in Queensland. Oh, what a wonderful system we have!

The first thing you need to do is get all parties involved to agree to coordinate their grading so that they actually mean something. PCRA, St George, ASBK and FX all think D grade mean completely different things, so the first thing to do is get the different bodies together. There's no point adjusting St George's policies if the rest just keep on doing whatever they want.

I think if we got some decent rule options down for St George, including socialised with the MA grading committee that we 'might' be able to get that side working ... As for FX / ASBK ... maybe wait and see where the future takes those at this stage, might all fix itself given enough time :)

[Mstevo]

The reason that FX and ASBK won't ever or anytime soon exclude anyone is they don't have enough on the grids of the premier classes already.
Last round ASBK had around 50 entries total.
This weekend at PI with the V8s there is 6 of them in total. Check natsoft yourself. It's embarrassing for the sport to say the least.

13 in total for race 1
looking at their times I could have been 3-4th lol only 4 weren't lapped by Allerton :-(

[senator8]

13 in total for race 1
looking at their times I could have been 3-4th lol only 4 weren't lapped by Allerton :-(

Yeah if I wasn't working, I might if even hopped on a plane and paid for a ride :) would've looked good on the cv.
They put out out a call for blow ins and offered free entry, which doubled the field.

[Little Mick]

bet that made the 6 initial guys happy :)

[dan]

How embarrassing :(

[Phat3R]

Once upon a time BSB use to be a dogs breakfast too ... it takes time, structure and getting the economics right to make these things work ... until there is one series with good promotion ...

Good read I can recommend:
Title: The story and spectacle of BSB
Author: Pinchin, Gary
ISBN:1844252116
Published: 2006
http://www.ebay.com/itm/British-Superbikes-The-First-10-Years-/140798615594
[I got a copy from a book stall in Westfield Miranda for $10]

Into:
Superbike racing began in Britain in 1971 when Motor Circuit Developments (MCD) and the weekly newspaper Motor Cycle News joined forces to promote the first-ever MCN Superbike Championship.
...
In the past eleven seasons of of BSB the class has enjoyed real stability and direction that has allowed it to grow into the massive televised road show that everyone knows and loves. The reason for the success can largely be put down to a change of management. More precisely, promotion of the series was taken out of the hands of the old-school, conservative committee-led Auto Cycle Union (the ACU is the governing body of motorcycle sport in the UK) by the circuit promoters and subsequently has flourished in a way very few thought possible.

...

McLaughlin's Superbike Concept:
Professional racer Steve McLaughlin drafter the regulations with help from his race tuner Jerry Branch. McLaughlin, whose outspoken character earned him the nickname 'Motormouth'; is probably the most important figure in the history of Superbike racing. He had served for eight years as the AMA rider's representative and formed the basic concept of the superbike class after meeting Aussie racer Warren Willing in the states. He told McLaughlin about the production based superbike class that has run in Australia since 1971.

...

http://www.motorcyclemuseum.org/halloffame/detail.aspx?RacerID=320

[Stu23]

Dr Jonathan Palmer Ex formula 1 guy owns lots of circuits ( MSVR i think ) is the company..... really changed it around re promotion, rider / circuit safety..... Top guy, a lot to thank him for

[Phat3R]

Dr Jonathan Palmer Ex formula 1 guy owns lots of circuits ( MSVR i think ) is the company..... really changed it around re promotion, rider / circuit safety..... Top guy, a lot to thank him for

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vcontent/page/custom/0,8510,4857-164078-181295-34794-160733-custom-item,00.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racesafe_Marshals_Association

[Nelso]

As I said somewhere before. Konsky and TON need to go and the most likely group to take over at this point is MRRDA. They will be having seniors at their race meets in the second half of next year and if it's well supported, who knows where that will lead to. I'm interested to see where their new management team is going to take them.

[Mstevo]

As I said somewhere before. Konsky and TON need to go and the most likely group to take over at this point is MRRDA. They will be having seniors at their race meets in the second half of next year and if it's well supported, who knows where that will lead to. I'm interested to see where their new management team is going to take them.
+1 and I'd love to see MNSW get the Nowra project up and running ASAP

[chubb]

So when do they actually send you the letter to say what grade you are?

[Mstevo]

So when do they actually send you the letter to say what grade you are?
before the first race meet next year

[Mstevo]

We are currently preparing a notice to send out to all competitors regarding suggestions to overcome the handicap problems.

I received this from the club(St George) amongst some other correspondence, the club is very willing to look at any and all constructive suggestions. well done Nick :-)

[Marshy]

I received this from the club(St George) amongst some other correspondence, the club is very willing to look at any and all constructive suggestions. well done Nick :-)

Interesting! Wonder what they have in mind. As far as I knew, I was talking with them again on Wednesday night about it. I am trying to prepare a powerpoint.....

Just out of interest, what correspondence? I never get any from the club.

[Mstevo]

Just out of interest, what correspondence? I never get any from the club.

I sent in an email regarding the Broadford races next year and they responded to it

[dan]

+1 and I'd love to see MNSW get the Nowra project up and running ASAP

Excuse my ignorance but what is the 'Nowra Project'?

[Little Mick]

http://www.shoalhavenmotorsport.com.au/proposed_race_track_for_shoalhaven.aspx

[dan]

That would rule.

[Negrogrande]

http://www.shoalhavenmotorsport.com.au/proposed_race_track_for_shoalhaven.aspx

any idea on what the track would look like?

[Mr.Ed]

I only hope they live up to their own hype by mentioning EC and PI in there... Don't get me wrong, even another a small track like Wakey would be great but if they build something over 3.5Kms long and as wide as PI/EC it'd be AWESOME!

[Stu23]

on the st george website, it is announced they are welcoming ideas for the handicap system and it future..... I have sent my ideas in, maybe not a good idea for everyone to, Nick you have some ideas too, so lets not flood them with mails !! spam attack lol

[Nelso]

http://www.shoalhavenmotorsport.com.au/proposed_race_track_for_shoalhaven.aspx

Their grant application was knocked back so it is not likely to go ahead now.:sad:

[Little Mick]

Bummer. :(

[Little Mick]

for for thought for the Handicap... why not have a lucky dip draw or lucky door prize points allocation in the case of a tie for first or any other position?

[Phat3R]

for for thought for the Handicap... why not have a lucky dip draw or lucky door prize points allocation in the case of a tie for first or any other position?

Rock, paper, scissors is so much more adult! :)

[chubb]

It just needs to be kept simple.

[Nelso]

What was wrong with my idea of bonus points to the older, fatter riders with the older, more standard bikes?:boink: In all seriousness, t's an easy thing to split without flipping a coin. There are plenty of variables that could be taken into account.

One idea is, in the case of a tie, give loyalty points to the riders. Give a bonus point for every year the rider has been an active member of the club, that way you split the tie and the person that has been supporting the club the longest gets something in return. Another idea is to favour the higher grades. If an A grader has the same points as a C grader, they have obviously ridden much better to get them. In the case of two or more A graders having a tie, count how many riders in their class and give the prize to the one who beat more riders, etc. etc.

There are plenty of ways to split a tie based on the rider without having to draw a name out of a hat.

[dan]

Makes sense to give it to the higher grade.

[chubb]

Another idea is to favour the higher grades. If an A grader has the same points as a C grader, they have obviously ridden much better to get them. In the case of two or more A graders having a tie, count how many riders in their class and give the prize to the one who beat more riders, etc. etc.


Why should an A grader get preference over a C?

If a C grader has tied with an A then the C grader has ridden better

Yes the A grader has more experience (possibly)

Maybe I'm just reading it wrongly.

[Stu23]

Typical self centered racers !!! where is the B grader in this calc huh huh !! ;)

[Mr.Ed]

Why can't we just share?

http://static.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/1342490534774_5634483.png

[Medic!]

I'm going to the meeting tonight to have a listen and see what goes on. Also hope to ask some question s about license and racing next year
Can't offer much re grading etc. Only know what I've read here. Didn't realise it was in such a state.

[chubb]

Let us in on the goss.

[Marshy]

Interesting meeting. Heading to the Creek for a track day today, so will elaborate later. Or Rick B might want to comment?

[Mstevo]

Interesting meeting. Heading to the Creek for a track day today, so will elaborate later. Or Rick B might want to comment?
given the email that was sent out to all riders, they are appearing to be proactive..which can only be a good thing :-)

[Phat3R]

Interesting meeting. Heading to the Creek for a track day today, so will elaborate later. Or Rick B might want to comment?

There has been a hold up in handicap system calculations by Snowy for 2103 over some missing data from the Natsoft system. Jan will be supplying the raw data today. With the awards ceremony 8th Dec (RSVP 1 Dec), they know they need to get this calculated ASAP as they cannot obtain the prizes from many of the sponsors without supplying the name of the prize winner.

They are still taking written submissions regarding improvements with the handicap system in 2014 and are reviewing them as they come in. Some were briefly read out in inward correspondence. There is a special board meeting next week on the matter, Nick has been invited. They will need to make a decision for 2014 at that meeting as it will effect the by laws that they need to complete before years end for racing next year.

Brought up grading and large number of D's a the front. Was told grading is all MC NSW. Was told by several members it's 12 months, 3 race meets in D, then go to C. From there on it's done on times. Very unusual to skip a grade, although Casey Stoner's application to go straight to A was allowed. I'm going to shoot MC NSW an email today to get regulations for what/how they do grading.

[Little Mick]

Re grading- Obviously not the case in every case then ..

[senator8]

Yes, why can I not stop laughing. Even the part about it being all mnsw is a piss take.

[Mstevo]

Grading stops and starts with MA and their state bodies as well as AASA!
until they get their collective shit together(and it's clearly not a priority for either of them) clubs will continue to bear the brunt of riders discontent as the meat in the sandwich
If they start looking at the issues to-day will be a couple of years before any changes are implamented

[Phat3R]

Yes, why can I not stop laughing. Even the part about it being all mnsw is a piss take.

I just thought I would get the opening position from the club, (well from my perspective, it sounds like a few others have been down this road before). Sometimes it's a bit of a game of twister to get anywhere on these issues. I'll need to get stuff in writing from MC NSW. I find only when people can't twist no more, can discussions about core issues begin, until then it's just official policy stuff, which is understandable. A civil manner helps, especially with volunteers, everyone I've met, gives a lot of there time and means well, and face to face are genuinely helpful well meaning folk. We finished up at 10pm, but there were some meetings others had following that involved signing the ARDC agreements for SMSP next year for something like 20K+. They all need to read, discuss, agree, sign every page of 80 page document. So god knows what time the committee members got home!

Interesting aside. The interim figures for the rounds at SMSP came through, the club made about 11K profit, which 'almost' offset the losses from the previous rounds. Total cost is something like 75K+ for everything over the two days. But the third highest specific cost after track hire and medical was security, which is a mandatory fixed cost decided by the ARDC.

I'm also wondering if Marshy should ask Allison if she wants to join TT, maybe she is a member already, so she can share recent news and club updates with the forum. Maybe a StG MC thread?

Oh some good introductory ideas also came out on merchandising, Nick made some great suggestions so they actually sell some polo shirts at race days. [They often bring merchandising to the track, but no one has time to sell them as they are usually busy / short staffed].

[senator8]

Mstevo, I have to disagree. It is true the responsibility of the grading system lays with the sanctioning bodies. But in my individual case it was the club who decided I should compete as a C grader after 5 months and 1 club meeting. Being wet behind the ears at the time and not having a clue who decides what etc I assumed it was MA. As it turns out I was still a D grader except in St George. Club decision? I still don't have a clue and could care less now, but didn't Nick say the club submits the gradings to the Road Race commission or something?

[Phat3R]

Grading in cycling articles, some more ideas perhaps ... have to actively work to move up grades ... although it appears in MC racing people less interested in kicking up a grade to learn ... interested in why is that ... so much faster you don't learn, just get left behind?

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2011/02/australian-grading-system/
http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2009/12/australia-cycling-needs-a-grading-system/

[Phat3R]

From the MC NSW site this appears to contain some grading by info on where people start in the MA system. As per last nights discussion it appears overseas riders (regardless of their grade) are seen as new riders as they have not been in the MC NSW grading system before. This was described as fair, which I admit I couldn't totally wrap my head around. Some of the conversation also centered on the other side with riders riding at too higher grade and being too slow. Again I couldn't wrap my head around that as an issue given all grades from A to D are in the same race at club level.


S28 : Page 2 of 7 : 01/08
BY LAWS : ROAD RACING
1. GRADING
Senior riders commencing Road Racing shall be graded initially as “D” Grade. The exception will be riders who are already graded in “A” or “B” for Dirt Track, Motocross or Speedway; these
Riders will commence Road Racing in “C” grade. Any senior “A” or “B” graded rider who has not competed in Open Competition for a period of 2 years shall be downgraded automatically if they re
turn to racing, “A“ grade riders will downgrade to “B”, and “B” grade riders will downgrade to “C” grade. Junior riders attaining Senior age shall be graded initially as “C” grade providing they have
competed for a period of 1 year in Junior Road Racing, if not, they commence Senior Road Racing in “D” grade.

http://www.motorcycling.com.au/PDF_Files/Club_Info/cl_roadracebylaws221107.pdf

[senator8]

Grading in cycling articles, some more ideas perhaps ... have to actively work to move up grades ... although it appears in MC racing people less interested in kicking up a grade to learn ... interested in why is that ... so much faster you don't learn, just get left behind?

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2011/02/australian-grading-system/
http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2009/12/australia-cycling-needs-a-grading-system/

What relevance is grading to learning to ride faster or race better? To me it is obvious, grading should be about racing and competing against your peers or like experience. Go a bit faster progress faster, improve a little slower progress a little slower. Until over time the experience importance or relevance diminishes and you should end up around your speed/grade/finishes dictate. I still don't understand a lot of the attitude of he/she is too fast for that grade instead of recognising or encouraging that persons performance relative to their experience. Especially as new riders come through. When little Johnny is top of the marks for his year(experience) at school, we don't say "if you do too well it's not fair on the other kids so we will put you with the bigger kids" because that's fair isn't it? Whilst there are subjective opinions making decisions about who should be graded what it's -------? fill in the blank