How do you ride a bike?

[Turbo]

I’ve spent a fair bit of track time on 600cc bikes. Both on tracks in Aus and in the UK, and I feel like I’m getting to know them well as well as how to cut some good laps.

I want more tho and I think 1000cc bikes are where I can find that extra bit of outright power as well as a deeper level of control, through the electronics etc.

I’ve ridden a quite a few litre bikes on track but they’ve never belonged to me so I’ve never really wanted to ride them hard.

What I’m keen to know is, who else has made this jump? What do you find the biggest differences to be from 600 to 1000cc? Do they require such a different approach to riding fast?

As many will know, one of the keys to riding a 600, is maintaining corner speed and not scrubbing off too much, as it’s harder to make it back up on the gas.

Surely the same approach to litre bikes would yield even better results?

Naturally the litre bike would reach higher speeds on the straights and would weigh more, so braking distances are longer and it would likely tip-in slower?.. How does that translate into the thinking of cutting a fast lap?

Can/should you just think of a litre bike as a really powerful 600 for optimum results?

[Binksy]

Personally only recently having changed from 600 to 1000 on the track. I'm really struggling with the change. Seems like the bike wants to be ridden really differently. I'm still kinda trying to ride it like the R6 and its just so hard to actually get to full throttle out of corners as you spend so much more time cranked over. I end up getting smoked by everyone driving out of corners while on the R6 I used to gain time on those around me out of corners. It is getting very frustrating but with more track time I'm hoping to modify my riding to suit what I believe the bike wants. At the creek im now only about 1s under my times on my R6. Even though I've gone from a relatively stock R6 (slip on, aftermarket rear shock, revalved stock front cartridges) to a Full ASC specced ZX10r (25mm Ohlins cartridges, Ohlins ttx36 rear shock etc). Although I suspect there is still a fair amount of set up to be done on my new bike!

[wellsprung]

I know a few guys I set bikes up for and the geometry for them varies a little differently to say a 600cc. I'm not a litre bike rider, but the general gist is to get them into the corner quick, turn them quick, pick them up and shoot them out. Very simplistic but something to think about, and harder said than done.

[chicken16]

I had a few issues transitioning from my ZX6 to the ZX10. The thing I found that really dropped my lap times on the 1000 was changing from the wide entry, holding as much speed as I could and running out wide with that speed didn't work on the 1000 as I was leant over way too much to hit the throttle. By slowing my entry slightly, turning it hard and standing it up as soon as I could let me get on the gas much harder, much earlier. Now I've just got to relearn the 600 all over again.

[nigelnobody]

Always wished i had started on a 600
Amazing how early really fast 600 guys get on it,seems like very little places where litre bikes have genuine advantage baring straights.
For me what works on most corner entry is braking as late as possible then the transition from mid to exit as quick as possible spending very little time on my knee.
The quicker i get up to fat part of tyre the better.Also perfecting throttle control on exit(ie. sorted fueling) makes smooth exits fun and fast.
Geometry obviously plays a big part in this goal,limiting wheelstands as well.

[chubb]

Owen it was a big learning curve for me jumping from the 600 to the 1000. Different lines from the 600 to the 1000. That being said, I have a lot of comments from other riders saying I ride the 1000 like a 600. Exit drive on the 1000 is still something I'm really trying to work on as its my weakest point riding the 1000.

I jumped on the Honda 600 (Kelly's not set up to my way of riding) and I had the best fun ever. It's a bit down on HP compared to the R6 (she is only putting out 102) and still laid down 44s in 65 degree track temp. As much as the 1000 is good on power, it's harder to ride that quick compared to the 600. It's definitely harder to throw around, got to be more careful on exit (even with electronics) longer braking distances due to the extra speed and weight.

When you want to jump in just do it. You can always go back to the 600

[Turbo]

Wow, some really interesting insight into people's experiences. Thanks very much for the feedback.
My own limited experience on litres has also shown up that different litre bikes seem to go about going fast in different ways.
The Aprilia and new R1 for example, seem much closer to the balance and poise of an R6 than say the S1000RR or ZX10, where brute force grunt, laid down with impressive electronics seems to be the approach.
I'm very keen to get stuck in to a litre bike and all the challenges with setup it may present. That's one of the biggest parts I like about this sport to be honest! Even shifting from a Gixxer to the R6 took A LOT of getting used to and a lot of tried and failed setups!

[chubb]

Along with lots more dollars in consumables.

[Binksy]

I had a few issues transitioning from my ZX6 to the ZX10. The thing I found that really dropped my lap times on the 1000 was changing from the wide entry, holding as much speed as I could and running out wide with that speed didn't work on the 1000 as I was leant over way too much to hit the throttle. By slowing my entry slightly, turning it hard and standing it up as soon as I could let me get on the gas much harder, much earlier.

Yea pretty much exactly my issues at the moment.. :(

[stevem]

Owen , I am riding mine with no electronics and think the key is smooth throttle and smooth braking and not making rider movements to upset the bike. Some corners are get it in , aim and fire it out and some are holding the speed like a 600 but smoothness is the key for me.

[nigelnobody]

Very interesting steve am almost 100% convinced will be running my ninja no tc
Only another 13hp over my gixxer and makes peak torque a little higher anyway.
Currently very focused on setting up body position pre-apex to limit late unsettling of bike.
Great advise steve!

[stevem]

I set up pre braking . Like turn 1 at the creek I set up as I cross the start finish line still under power so the bike isnt upset at all. Maybe t 6 or t 9 I'll stay back on the bike to keep the rear wheel down but will be off the side ready to roll in and as the braking is under control slide forward into corner entry position . Another thing that helps me with changing direction that can be underused a lot is using your feet and footpegs to change direction.

[zoidberg]

I set up pre braking . Like turn 1 at the creek I set up as I cross the statt finish line still under power so the bike isnt upset at all. Maybe t 6 or t 9 I'll stay back on the bike to keep the rear wheel down but will be off the side ready to roll in and as the braking is under control slide forward into corner entry position . Another thing that helps me with changing direction that can be underused a lot is using your feet and footpegs to change direction.

That's an interesting point! Never really thought about using the footpegs much, other than riding the shitty new stuff at the creek, up the hill out of turn 6 it's all about that for me.

Steve, I have an 04 R1 without traction control, same as you. I find I tend to watch the more modern bikes laying black lines without their tail moving, whereas I need to wait a little to stand it up more or all the rear end does is move rather than drive. In my mind, I always wish I could do what I see Pedrosa do, IE; really push the bike more vertical up and get hard on the gas, but I tend to just be gradual on the throttle and roll it on harder as the bike gets more vertical. If I ever try to be more enthusiastic, it slides and I lose drive.

[nigelnobody]

Umm i think stevem is on a beemer.
Mstevo r1.
Loading the outside peg helps with traction and added benefit getting bike picked up quicker.

[zoidberg]

Oh, my bad, I know less and less everyday. I should really concentrate more on things like weighting footpegs, but there are lots of things I already struggle to concentrate on as it is. I will enjoy reading and learning from this thread! Here's hoping it keep going! And Owen, make sure it's clubsport ready whatever you get!

[Turbo]

Owen , I am riding mine with no electronics and think the key is smooth throttle and smooth braking and not making rider movements to upset the bike. Some corners are get it in , aim and fire it out and some are holding the speed like a 600 but smoothness is the key for me.

Thanks for the input, Steve. That's great to hear, smooth has always been fast in my experience!
I'm always pleasantly surprised that the fastest laps seem the calmest too.

[Turbo]

And Owen, make sure it's clubsport ready whatever you get!

Not sure I want to do that to be honest, I'm looking to make a proper jump. With so many ground breaking bikes coming out last year, I think that's the sort of bike I want to get my teeth stuck into.

[stevem]

Umm i think stevem is on a beemer.
Mstevo r1.
Loading the outside peg helps with traction and added benefit getting bike picked up quicker.

Yeah 2011 s1000rr

[zoidberg]

Not sure I want to do that to be honest, I'm looking to make a proper jump. With so many ground breaking bikes coming out last year, I think that's the sort of bike I want to get my teeth stuck into.

I would too! Oh well, I can watch you disappear in the distance in unlimited.

[chubb]

Not sure I want to do that to be honest, I'm looking to make a proper jump. With so many ground breaking bikes coming out last year, I think that's the sort of bike I want to get my teeth stuck into.

You know you want the new 10R

[Marshy]

WeR1.....


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[Wolfie57]

Get the R1 mate they look and sound great! You're crazy enough not to be intimidated by a litre bike as well!!!!

Don't know about anyone else but the biggest change for me after years of riding 600's was learning how to use the rear brake and changing body position to keep the front down.....

[nigelnobody]

Agree wolfie rear brake is your best friend, keep it covered on exits works a treat!
Watch the honda riders asbk,stauffer jumps on it lets it go full throttle launches off slow corners.

[Wolfie57]

Agree wolfie rear brake is your best friend, keep it covered on exits works a treat!
Watch the honda riders asbk,stauffer jumps on it lets it go full throttle launches off slow corners.

Yeh I'd never ever used it on track but once I moved to 1000's I had to learn fast, now I get through a couple of sets of brake pads a season. Will never be as bad as Chris Walker though, he uses a set a race and practically sets them on fire!

[Turbo]

I remember overhearing Glenn Allerton talking to Pete Frost about rear brake, on where and how often he uses it. I can't believe how many sets of pads they use!! Mine has cobwebs on it :)
There is probably a line where too much anti-wheelie electronics is robbing you of power whereas a good feel for rear brake allows you to ride out as much power as possible, per corner.

[Mstevo]

yep steering the bike with the rear brake, comes from his dirt bike training/skills, I'm thinking about changing back from the thumb brake, so I can get more pressure to lock up the rear, which used to scare the crap out of me until I got into dirt riding and learnt the rear brake is your friend :-)

[Turbo]

I can get more pressure to lock up the rear, which used to scare the crap out of me until I got into dirt riding and learnt the rear brake is your friend :-)

Woah, so locking up is desirable? I always thought that slowing the rear was fine and helped you step it out but lockup was a no-no?

[Wolfie57]

A little trick - once Glenn goes past you watch him for as long as you can as his rear brake light works and you will be amazed how much he uses it, well before your normal braking marker and well after corner exit......just depends how long you can keep him in sight!!!

[Turbo]

A little trick - once Glenn goes past you watch him for as long as you can as his rear brake light works and you will be amazed how much he uses it, well before your normal braking marker and well after corner exit......just depends how long you can keep him in sight!!!

Yeah, I've seen that when he's on the road R1. Gave me a bit of a fright at the middle of T1! He was clearly well and truly back on the gas as I was still tipping.

[nigelnobody]

Quizzed Gilesy once as his tail light was flicking almost constantly.
Said uses it plenty but no need for braided lines as dont want to lock it.

[Negrogrande]

switch for me was the best thing I did.
With the R1, I didn't have to ride it as hard (granted better suspension and more power).
1st session I was a second faster & 3 by the end of the day.

it is also a joy not having to plan overtakes as far in advance, turn 12 roll on see you later

[chicken16]

I read an interview with Colin Edwards a few years ago and he was saying he never used the rear brake until he went to MotoGP. He said on the Superbike it meant one less thing he had to think about but once on the MotoGP monster he had to or he was off the track.

[stevem]

yep steering the bike with the rear brake, comes from his dirt bike training/skills, I'm thinking about changing back from the thumb brake, so I can get more pressure to lock up the rear, Can you elaborate on this ? When do you lock it ? .Do people use the rear brake to tighten a line mid corner ?

[nigelnobody]

Only time i ever use to rear to tighten line mid corner was turn 11(brabham) seems to pull it round at the bottom hairpin left.

[Carl-52]

can use the rear to tighten your line mid to exit, also in the braking zone its like throwing out an anchor... (dirtbike skills 101) I use it every now and then on the r6, on Stu's R6 i used it alot (mostly to bring the front end back down). Believe it or not they say clutch control is what you need to back it in. Rear brake is just to stop the rear from overtaking the front wheel and the clutch controls how far sideways you want it. I do NOT think you want to lock the rear tho on a road bike hahahahha Flat spotted tyres, bad vibes and lots of run wides i reckon if you do that

[Carl-52]

As im going faster im using it it more

[Petefrost]

Well gentlemen, much talkings! I went backwards before I went forwards in my transition from 600 to 1000, took a while but for me it was a combination of different riding style, and I agree with most of what's said here, you carry more speed into the turn, go deeper into the turn and square it off and fire it out. Also you have to be a lot more physical with the bike, way more. Much more input. Knee into the tank, pushing it over with the knee, weight on the pegs, pulling on the bars to get it up. Yes to using back brake, my tuition day with Glenn Allerton was worth every cent. Squeezing on the back brake out of most of the turns settles the bike, keeps the front wheel down and allows you to pull full throttle. A sometimes daunting thing on a litre bike. But last year, thanks in a large part to Glenn, I dropped 3 seconds a lap with more to come. This has also helped my confidence to which plays a massive role in how much you're willing to twist the throttle and how much you squeeze your levers. Get tuition gentlemen is my best advice.....


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[Marshy]

But last year, thanks in a large part to Glenn, I dropped 3 seconds a lap with more to come. This has also helped my confidence to which plays a massive role in how much you're willing to twist the throttle and how much you squeeze your levers. Get tuition gentlemen is my best advice.....

Can you please just teach me what Glenn taught you? Thanks :)

[Petefrost]

No, now go away Marshy!

[Petefrost]

Also have to say that as my confidence rose, getting my boingers sorted by Rob Hodgson was another boost...

[Petefrost]

Can you please just teach me what Glenn taught you? Thanks :)

Besides, you are quicker than me! Can you teach me turn 12? My current Achilles Heel?

[chubb]

Did you decide yet Owen??

I'm actually going back the other way. I can't really ride the 1000 the way it's meant to be ridden so I'm going back to what I was more comfortable on, a 600.

Guess I was always more a 600 rider than a 1000

[Marshy]

Besides, you are quicker than me! Can you track me turn 12? My current Achilles Heel?

My best corner! Sure, I'll help..... right up to the point at which you surpass my laptimes. After that: no soup for you!! ;)


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[Marshy]

I'm actually going back the other way. I can't really ride the 1000 the way it's meant to be ridden so I'm going back to what I was more comfortable on, a 600.

Guess I was always more a 600 rider than a 1000

I did this three times, so I know the feeling. The Aprilia was the only litre bike to suit me. It feels just like a fast 600.

Maybe I should try a 600 again. What are you getting, chubb?


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[chubb]

Either the 6R or the R6. My 10R should be up for sale in a couple of weeks.

[Marshy]

If PI was my local, I would definitely be back on a 600 too!! I had much more fun there on the R6.


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[Petefrost]

My best corner! Sure, I'll help..... right up to the point at which you surpass my laptimes. After that: no soup for you!! ;)


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Bloody turn Nazi!

[Binksy]

If PI was my local, I would definitely be back on a 600 too!! I had much more fun there on the R6.


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Would have thought it'd be the other way around! EC I LOVED on my 600 and really don't like it on my ZX10, just can't seem to get comfortable. But nothing compares to opening the ZX10 up on the exit of T12 at PI!

[Marshy]

Would have thought it'd be the other way around! EC I LOVED on my 600 and really don't like it on my ZX10, just can't seem to get comfortable. But nothing compares to opening the ZX10 up on the exit of T12 at PI!

Turn 12 maybe, but for me nothing nothing nothing compared to T3 at PI, bouncing the R6 off the limiter flat out in 5th gear, knee down, rear tyre spinning wildly and the tail hanging out. I'm not good enough to do that on a litre.

I'm noticing a bit of a pattern here.... the common denominator is the 10R!! I thought they were pretty rubbish when I rode one, but some people like them I guess. Although I can rattle off a long list of names of people that have never gelled with the big Kwaka. Maybe try a different litrebike before throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I didn't like the Hooonda when I had it either, nor obviously the Beemers. The Aprilia really really suits me and my 600-ish riding style.

That's how I got onto the Ape in the first place.... having just bought and quickly sold the Honda thou, I was speaking to Michael McMillan, who also had had Hondas and was about to quit racing altogether because he couldn't gel with them, when someone suggested to him to try the RSV4 and he fell in love! I took this on board, tried one as a result and also fell in love! It's like a powerful 600. Handles better than my R6 (which I totally didn't think was possible), has unbelievable midrange drive off turns because of the V motor, and isn't intimidating at the top end. The polar opposite to the inline fours, which are heavy, don't handle very well, have hardly any midrange, then are all peaky top-end power.

The exception would be the new R1, which I can't wait to ride. Liam tells me it feels pretty similar to the RSV4. Small and good handling, with better corner-exit drive than most inlines because of the cross-plane crank.

[Marshy]

Bloody turn Nazi!

No corner speed for youuuuuuuu!!

[chubb]

The 10R is brutal. No two ways to describe it. Like you said it comes on really strong up the top and you have to really wrestle the litrebikes

[Binksy]

I'm noticing a bit of a pattern here.... the common denominator is the 10R!! I thought they were pretty rubbish when I rode one, but some people like them I guess. Although I can rattle off a long list of names of people that have never gelled with the big Kwaka. Maybe try a different litrebike before throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I didn't like the Hooonda when I had it either, nor obviously the Beemers. The Aprilia really really suits me and my 600-ish riding style.

Hmmm my problem is a lack of trust and feel in the front end. Some of the corners when you need to put faith in the front like Corporate Hill, T10 and T4 have got me fucked. Comparing it against the just 100% glued sensation you get from the R6 I think is part of the issue. Always felt like you have enough grip to ride the R6 on the ceiling of your pit garage. The power of the ZX10 is taking some getting used too but that's not my current concern. If I can get happy with the front the rest will fall into place I reckon.

Just about to have a play with geometry to see if its just something simple. But got 3 days at PI to figure it out next week so hopefully something can be found....

[chubb]

The zx10 likes to be fairly flat I found.. but its different for everyone..

[Binksy]

The zx10 likes to be fairly flat I found.. but its different for everyone..

Yea I'm currently set up with about 10mm of fork showing through the triple, going to start out with it down to just 5mm and see if that helps then might go the other way if I still don't like how it's handling. Really haven't spent the time playing with setting enough on the bike yet.

[Petefrost]

When are you racing again Marshy?

[Ruckos87]

The exception would be the new R1, which I can't wait to ride. Liam tells me it feels pretty similar to the RSV4. Small and good handling, with better corner-exit drive

That's how it felt to me, (even at my piss weak pace) you can let us know on the 1st.[emoji41]


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[Petefrost]

Yea I'm currently set up with about 10mm of fork showing through the triple, going to start out with it down to just 5mm and see if that helps then might go the other way if I still don't like how it's handling. Really haven't spent the time playing with setting enough on the bike yet.

Spend a day and a little money on Rob Hodgson from Well Sprung suspension tuning, it's money well spent. He's very reasonable 💰and very knowledgable. Then all you'll have to do is concentrate on lap times rather than if you're going in the right direction with your twiddlers.

[Binksy]

Spend a day and a little money on Rob Hodgson from Well Sprung suspension tuning, it's money well spent. He's very reasonable ��and very knowledgable. Then all you'll have to do is concentrate on lap times rather than if you're going in the right direction with your twiddlers.

Actually MStevo has already recommended Rob so it is certainly something I'm interested in! Will have to hunt him down for a chat about it all I think.

[Turbo]

Did you decide yet Owen??

I'm actually going back the other way. I can't really ride the 1000 the way it's meant to be ridden so I'm going back to what I was more comfortable on, a 600.

Guess I was always more a 600 rider than a 1000

I am slightly worried it's the wrong choice! Having ridden a few tho, I think I'd be happy on an Aprilia or a new R1 as they just felt like a crazy powerful R6!
Do you think it's just the ZX10R that's not quite the right for you or is it the whole litre bike thing not really what you're after?


Actually MStevo has already recommended Rob so it is certainly something I'm interested in! Will have to hunt him down for a chat about it all I think.


+1 for Rob, he's a top bloke and knows HEAPS!!

http://www.wellsprung.com.au/contact.php

[chubb]

I am slightly worried it's the wrong choice! Having ridden a few tho, I think I'd be happy on an Aprilia or a new R1 as they just felt like a crazy powerful R6!
Do you think it's just the ZX10R that's not quite the right for you or is it the whole litre bike thing not really what you're after?

I think it may be a litrebike thing... I'll be happy to go back to a 600 and when I feel the urge, maybe ride a few before I decide to go down that route again....

[Marshy]

I think it may be a litrebike thing... I'll be happy to go back to a 600 and when I feel the urge, maybe ride a few before I decide to go down that route again....

I'd suggest it really might be a ZX10 thing (for you too Binksy). Many many people have issues with front end feel. It's something to do with weight distribution, offset and something else. It's a 'known issue'. There's people running weird clipons to try and get the rider weight over the front more, and stuff like that.

My advice for people not too sure about a litre is to try a few first! Like I said, I hated the Blade, the 10R and the S1000. I'd be disappointed if I'd assumed that that was it for litrebikes and not tried the Aprilia.

[Marshy]

When are you racing again Marshy?

ASBK round 2, Wakey, Easter weekend :thumb:

[Petefrost]

Actually MStevo has already recommended Rob so it is certainly something I'm interested in! Will have to hunt him down for a chat about it all I think.
Do you want his number?

[Petefrost]

ASBK round 2, Wakey, Easter weekend :thumb:

Are you doing the whole season? Are you going to do any fx and St George?

[Marshy]

Are you doing the whole season? Are you going to do any fx and St George?

Yes, the intention is to do the whole season. Perth will depend on the transport deal on offer, if any.

I'm still planning on doing St George, although possibly not PI, depending on the Perth thing (they are a week apart).

Unlikely to do FX, although I might be tempted to do a Creek round if you guys are going.


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[Marshy]

Do you want his number?

Rob Hodgson: 0431 599 899

[wellsprung]

Thanks Pete, yes, if anyone needs any info on setup and assistance in getting their bike dialled in, please just give me a call.

:smile:

[wellsprung]

Rob Hodgson: 0431 599 899

Thanks Marshy!

[wellsprung]

Aprilia or new R1 would be ideal I think Owen!

[Ruckos87]

Aprilia or new R1 would be ideal I think Owen!

If your there on the 1st Owen. Your welcome to take it for a run.



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[Turbo]

If your there on the 1st Owen. Your welcome to take it for a run.



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Very good of you mate, thanks heaps! I'm on baby watch until after April tho.
I'm pretty sure R1 is the way to go tho. I just clicked with it after only one session!


Aprilia or new R1 would be ideal I think Owen!

I think you're right, Rob. They both seem to suit exactly how I like to ride.

[Petefrost]

Very good of you mate, thanks heaps! I'm on baby watch until after April tho.
I'm pretty sure R1 is the way to go tho. I just clicked with it after only one session!



I think you're right, Rob. They both seem to suit exactly how I like to ride.
What? Like a little girl?

[Turbo]

What? Like a little girl?

Not like a little girl, we've been told to expect an actual little girl.

[nigelnobody]

Envy your position Sicko!
New R1 seems to be the most impressive of the latest litre bikes.
One piece of advice from very fast racer that sticks with me is "you cant buy speed its earned".
When researching my purchases always try to ask top A grade rider what times they have done on bone stock streetbikes.
Gilesy: Gsxr1000 1:59/1:35 2012
Condon:Zx10r 1:35 flat.2014
Shannon Johnson: Cbr:1:36 2013
Got Allerton on monday R1 1:33.7 2016.
I am sure all these bikes have strong and weak points but the talent adapted/overcome and cut very fast times.

[Petefrost]

Envy your position Sicko!
New R1 seems to be the most impressive of the latest litre bikes.
One piece of advice from very fast racer that sticks with me is "you cant buy speed its earned".
When researching my purchases always try to ask top A grade rider what times they have done on bone stock streetbikes.
Gilesy: Gsxr1000 1:59/1:35 2012
Condon:Zx10r 1:35 flat.2014
Shannon Johnson: Cbr:1:36 2013
Got Allerton on monday R1 1:33.7 2016.
I am sure all these bikes have strong and weak points but the talent adapted/overcome and cut very fast times.

I disagree. It is widely agreed by racers, motorcycle journo's around the world and the general international motorcycle fraternity, that all of these bikes without exception are absolutely excellent. The best we have seen so far and to split them into 1st, 2nd etc, is just an exercise in personal preference and price. I don't think any of us has the talent to really get the best out of these things, so to speak of one being better than the other says more about us as riders than the bikes in question.
Meant entirely in a light hearted way nigelnobody!

[nigelnobody]

All good!
My point being they are all amazing much more than we can get the most out of.
Spoiled for choice, unfortunately my budget is 10k second hand,still get plenty for my money.

[Marshy]

I remember Wetty getting a trophy once, claiming that he was proof that you CAN buy speed, having just had his suspension significantly upgraded. And his motors are fast precisely because they are expensive.
There's a happy middle ground of course, but to simply accept that you can't improve your laptimes by upgrading your equipment is naive. Some bikes are better in stock form than others, but once you do the usual smallish upgrades that any racebike would get (exhaust, suspension, ECU, brakes), then they become much more similar in comparative performance.

That said, some bikes really suit some people, and others suit other people. Aprilias suit me. Beemers don't. Interestingly, the people I know that love racing Beemers, don't really like the Aprilia!! Horses for courses.

Is any one brand a clear winner? Nope. Does one brand suit somebody much better than somebody else? Absolutely! And life would be boring if it were any other way ;)


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[nigelnobody]

Absolutely 100% true
My budget rules out the latest and Euro with all the trappings.
Lol Wetty!miss his view on the world.
Am sure he would have plenty to say re:10r's

[Petefrost]

All good!
My point being they are all amazing much more than we can get the most out of.
Spoiled for choice, unfortunately my budget is 10k second hand,still get plenty for my money.

I hear you on the budget. I got mine from Pickles Auctions for 10k with only 3,500 kms on it and a few dings. I love it!

[Petefrost]

Wetty is a knob on many levels.
I like my Beemer very much and when you let me ride your Aprillia Nick, I thought that was fantastic too. Different, small, great handling, very 600 like, didn't like the lack of top end grunt but still a fantastic bike nonetheless. Then I got my suspension sorted and I was in love all over again. [emoji173]️

[Nelso]

I'd suggest it really might be a ZX10 thing (for you too Binksy). Many many people have issues with front end feel. It's something to do with weight distribution, offset and something else. It's a 'known issue'. There's people running weird clipons to try and get the rider weight over the front more, and stuff like that.

My advice for people not too sure about a litre is to try a few first! Like I said, I hated the Blade, the 10R and the S1000. I'd be disappointed if I'd assumed that that was it for litrebikes and not tried the Aprilia.

It's not a ZX10 thing as mine handles unbelievably! It all comes down to set up. The front end of mine, with the K-Tec suspension is phenomenal. It's set up opposite to Rancel's, as it is really steep with the front end lowered heaps (more than yours Binksy) and the back raised a bit and it works great!

[Marshy]

I was talking to Carlos on the weekend about this, and he said the same. He has the front down and bum up, and it works.


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[wellsprung]

It's not a ZX10 thing as mine handles unbelievably! It all comes down to set up. The front end of mine, with the K-Tec suspension is phenomenal. It's set up opposite to Rancel's, as it is really steep with the front end lowered heaps (more than yours Binksy) and the back raised a bit and it works great!

Absolutely guys, the ZX10 since about 2008 has had a front end trail figure of between 107 -110mm, this is very lazy, but stable. The front down and rear up would definitively be the right move to get that figure alot better. Generally better for most riders to get to the most out of them with less effort.

[Binksy]

Hmmm thanks for the info people. Got 3 days of testing at PI over the next week so might have a play around with it. Was leaning towards flattening out the bike even more but might just have a crack going the other way first!

[Leezx10r]

I was talking to Carlos on the weekend about this, and he said the same. He has the front down and bum up, and it works.


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That's how my zx10 is setup also Nick. Take her for a spin and see what you think compared to last time [emoji106]🏻


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[Turbo]

Hey, Troy Bayliss, you've won a few world championships..... How do you ride a bike?
TB - "I'll show you!!"

http://i.imgur.com/GohV25zl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/nPcnyZXl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/kf1E6vql.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/h4mJCw1l.jpg

[Marshy]

I can see the grin from here....


https://vimeo.com/160438802 (https://vimeo.com/160438802)


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[Turbo]

Thanks for the vid, Marshy!! The front wheel barely touched the ground!
Mad insight into his riding tho. :thumb:

[Mr.Ed]

Hope you remember all his braking markers now hahaha

[Turbo]

Hope you remember all his braking markers now hahaha

I think there was one at pit entry after the session..... :lol:

[Ruckos87]

Nice.... Would have been fun


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[Mr.Ed]

I think there was one at pit entry after the session..... :lol:

Is that the one they dub the "amen" marker? hahaha

[stevem]

Mad insight into his riding tho. :thumb: What sticks out about his riding?

[Turbo]

What sticks out about his riding?

A couple of really big take-homes for me...
One was just how little time he spends turning. It's deep in, flick over and fire back out again, straight lines everywhere!

The other is how much of the track he used, all over the ripple strip, every milimetre of track and some dirt was a potential turning point or apex.

I personally get back on the gas pretty early of a corner, a wee bit to steady the bike, with a gradual then hard roll on. His throttle use is more like a switch! He's off for a good while, to brake and turn. Then he's right back on and hard!

[Ruckos87]

What time did u he pull with you on?


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[Turbo]

What time did u he pull with you on?


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1:05/1:06!!

[stevem]

A couple of really big take-homes for me...
One was just how little time he spends turning. It's deep in, flick over and fire back out again, straight lines everywhere!

The other is how much of the track he used, all over the ripple strip, every milimetre of track and some dirt was a potential turning point or apex.

I personally get back on the gas pretty early of a corner, a wee bit to steady the bike, with a gradual then hard roll on. His throttle use is more like a switch! He's off for a good while, to brake and turn. Then he's right back on and hard!

Great insite, priceless.

[stevem]

1:05/1:06!!

That's funny.

[zoidberg]

A couple of really big take-homes for me...
One was just how little time he spends turning. It's deep in, flick over and fire back out again, straight lines everywhere!

The other is how much of the track he used, all over the ripple strip, every milimetre of track and some dirt was a potential turning point or apex.

I personally get back on the gas pretty early of a corner, a wee bit to steady the bike, with a gradual then hard roll on. His throttle use is more like a switch! He's off for a good while, to brake and turn. Then he's right back on and hard!

That's awesome! I didn't even know you had the ride mate, what a blast. Was the grab handle on the tank a little loose? It came off in one of his pillions hands today...

[Turbo]

That's awesome! I didn't even know you had the ride mate, what a blast. Was the grab handle on the tank a little loose? It came off in one of his pillions hands today...

I would have waved..... :lol:
Yes!! The handle WAS loose. I was telling Kris and Marshy when I came back!
I saw the crew playing with it before I went out and one of lugs bolts was loose.
They couldn't get it back in but scrutineering deemed it ok to go out...
Evidentally it got worse!! :jaw:

[Ruckos87]

I would have waved..... :lol:
Yes!! The handle WAS loose. I was telling Kris and Marshy when I came back!
I saw the crew playing with it before I went out and one of lugs bolts was loose.
They couldn't get it back in but scrutineering deemed it ok to go out...
Evidentally it got worse!! :jaw:

That's pretty bad. Considering any Joeblow could have done it with no riding experience.
I actually won one as well but couldn't make it down in time ( or the 95 kg pillion weight limit) Damb Easter eggs....

[Turbo]

Got sent this link from fellow TT member, nigelnobody. It's from the ZX10 forum but don't let that put you off :P
Interesting read, if you're killing time on the toilet :lol: A bit of insight into becoming a better rider with various people's approach...

http://www.zx-10r.net/forum/f23/how-become-better-rider-323513.html

[Turbo]

Here's another link for anybody else reading along with this. It comes from a review article on three different capacity of sportsbike and how each approaches going fast...


http://www.sportrider.com/displacement-test-yamaha-r6-vs-suzuki-gsx-r750-vs-kawasaki-zx-10r

"The Kawasaki ZX-10R initially jumped to the top of each of our test riders’ top-picks list, its straight-line speed making up for their inability to get aggressive early in the morning and carry midcorner speed, which would prove the secret to quick laps on the 600 and 750.
More than our test riders’ late-bird personalities, what this highlights is the different riding styles necessitated by larger- and smaller-displacement bikes.
Quick—and safe—laps on the 1000 are a matter of rolling the bike through the middle of a corner and then standing it up as soon as possible so that you can get on the gas.
In contrast, the 600 must be ridden aggressively and the throttle opened as quick as possible—as early as before the apex—to carry as much corner speed as you can."

[stevem]

The basic fundamentals are the same, but how fine you apply them allows you to be a better rider.

A better rider is one who can apply the fundamentals when the pace goes up and the risk increases.
Share
I like this.

[Leezx10r]

That's some good points there. I have been "trying" the firing between corners, point to point.


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[Mr.Ed]

After reading that, maybe swapping for a 250 might not be a bad idea

[Nelso]

After reading that, maybe swapping for a 250 might not be a bad idea

Everyone should learn to ride an underpowered bike fast, before getting on a modern weapon (often with heaps of mods) and relying on the ridiculously good acceleration and braking to get faster without learning to corner fast. That's why 250 production racing back in the 90's was so good for producing so many world class riders.

[zooker]

Everyone should learn to ride an underpowered bike fast, before getting on a modern weapon (often with heaps of mods) and relying on the ridiculously good acceleration and braking to get faster without learning to corner fast. That's why 250 production racing back in the 90's was so good for producing so many world class riders.

That's my motto :D Good fun punting an old underpowered bike around. Has certainly made me a better rider doing so

[Linden]

Everyone should learn to ride an underpowered bike fast, before getting on a modern weapon (often with heaps of mods) and relying on the ridiculously good acceleration and braking to get faster without learning to corner fast. That's why 250 production racing back in the 90's was so good for producing so many world class riders.

So how long is this supposed to take ... I've been on a lower powered bike for the last 15+ years and still struggle .... maybe it just me :(

[Jashdown]

What does every mean when they say they use the rear brake on exit? Like are you actually opening the throttle while staying on the rear brake? If so, what's the benefit of this? Why can't you just marginally less throttle and control wheel spin in that way?

My biggest trouble with going quick is my entry and exit. I seem to brake way too early into the corners and then find myself coasting to the apex or opening throttle pre-apex, which tends to push me wide on exit. But if I try brake later, obviously I'm needing to trail brake harder and further, but instead I overshoot and run wide. I guess for me I just feel like I have no idea what the front tyre is doing, I'm not sure how much I can actually push the tyre due to my perception that it's like a switch in regards to grip; one second it will be holding, then next second it's gone (like you see in motogp all the time).

How do you guys develope your front end feel and know how hard you can push the front? Is it just trial and error, or is there and actual process to it?

[nigelnobody]

On my 09 gsxr1000 i have taught myself to use the rear in 2 ways.
Mid to tighten the line; then cover the brake when exit to catch any wheelstands(just a dab) or potential highside.
True holding throttle constant if spinning will take care but i prefer to have my foot always in place.
Right handers prove more difficult, have decided to not flip tyre and use extra grip available.
T/c on my Zx10 level(2) takes care of this but depending on gearing is cutting too much h/p.

As for front end feel colder months a sliding front will let go early while in summer there seems to be a lot of warning.
Personal preferance to brand goes a long way to confidance in just trusting the grip will be there.
All part of the fun of learning.

[Marshy]

There's a rear brake?!? I've never been able to find it :(


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[Ruckos87]

Never used it till I had some Training with Alex Cudlin.

Basically he explained it to me like this. (If I recall correctly it was his 4the session drill so I had a bit going on in my head...)

If your on the rear break it will stabilise the bike, and pull u up quicker entering the corner.
if / when you drift wide or go in to hot a little more rear mid turn will tighten up the turn, safely where as front could cause a bigger issue
if your to far gone to make it, at least you'll be slowing as you run off.

As u exit I think it's supposed to keep the front down but I get off it as I get on the gas

I use it now. Effectively ???

Not sure... [emoji848]


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[nigelnobody]

There's a rear brake?!? I've never been able to find it :(


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All joking aside Nick makes a good case for buying an Aprillia.
Smooth v4 pulses with advanced APX electronics would make the rear brake nearly redundant.
Although his avatar shows looping it is very possible.

[stevem]

How do you guys develope your front end feel and know how hard you can push the front? Is it just trial and error, or is there and actual process to it?[/QUOTE]

Providing the bike hasn't got some radical setup I look at who else is using that tyre and going fast and figure the tyre is capable of it so just comes down to rider input and trial and error. There is some sort of a window there so I normally use 1/2 to 3/4of that window and leave the rest as back up to catch any mishap. I was put onto using the rear brake on exit about 6 months ago and wouldn't consider not using it now. The rear brake keeps the front end down and allows more throttle to the point where the net result greater than it would be with less power and no brake.

[Marshy]

Although his avatar shows looping it is very possible.

Ironically that photo was pre-APX. I used to love wheelieing over the hill out of 3 every lap, but now with the (frankly unbelievable) wheelie control of the APX, the one thing I can't do any more is a decent wheelie!!! Dammit. The lord giveth and taketh away....


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[Marshy]

How do you guys develope your front end feel and know how hard you can push the front? Is it just trial and error, or is there and actual process to it?

Front end grip isn't usually like a switch (we aren't at MotoGP lean angles). Think more like Marquez's mini-saves, where he picks it up off his knee, but less extreme. I've picked up dozens of front loses with my knee over the years. This is mostly when you're at the limit of grip and go a fraction beyond. Sometimes you'll get a tiny slide that doesn't need picking up, but you feel it. That's a smaller fraction beyond the limit. Practice, and you'll learn the feeling.

A proper lowside (ie no chance of catching the front) is usually an error of some sort, or pushing way too hard.

By just going a tiny bit harder gradually, you'll get to feeling the feedback from the front. And then as you up the pace, you can pretty much rely on the tyre being able to cope with the same thing again (in the same day/conditions with same tyre wear, not forever under any circumstances). This gets you used to the 'next level' of corner speed. And then you trust it: My best laps have had me thinking "I can't believe the front isn't folding here" on the same turn, lap after lap after lap.



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[chubb]

So good on the 600 vs 1000. Need to be more aggressive riding the 600


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[Jashdown]

Providing the bike hasn't got some radical setup I look at who else is using that tyre and going fast and figure the tyre is capable of it so just comes down to rider input and trial and error. There is some sort of a window there so I normally use 1/2 to 3/4of that window and leave the rest as back up to catch any mishap. I was put onto using the rear brake on exit about 6 months ago and wouldn't consider not using it now. The rear brake keeps the front end down and allows more throttle to the point where the net result greater than it would be with less power and no brake.


Front end grip isn't usually like a switch (we aren't at MotoGP lean angles). Think more like Marquez's mini-saves, where he picks it up off his knee, but less extreme. I've picked up dozens of front loses with my knee over the years. This is mostly when you're at the limit of grip and go a fraction beyond. Sometimes you'll get a tiny slide that doesn't need picking up, but you feel it. That's a smaller fraction beyond the limit. Practice, and you'll learn the feeling.

A proper lowside (ie no chance of catching the front) is usually an error of some sort, or pushing way too hard.

By just going a tiny bit harder gradually, you'll get to feeling the feedback from the front. And then as you up the pace, you can pretty much rely on the tyre being able to cope with the same thing again (in the same day/conditions with same tyre wear, not forever under any circumstances). This gets you used to the 'next level' of corner speed. And then you trust it: My best laps have had me thinking "I can't believe the front isn't folding here" on the same turn, lap after lap after lap.



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Ahh got ya. I guess my small changes don't feel so small on track. I feel like if I jump on the brakes just a meter later than normal into turn 2 for instance, I run extremely wide on entry. But then again, I think I'm only braking at about 70% potential, my stringy little arms and deflated chest aren't capable of dealing with such extreme brake over and over again yet!

Thanks for the input

[Simmo]

How do you guys develope your front end feel and know how hard you can push the front? Is it just trial and error, or is there and actual process to it?

Just read this in Simon Crafers book Motovudu2 and remembered this discussion. Thought it might help.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161005/aac979e4847935359cac13ad480ffee4.jpg


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[WRCPUG]

Front end grip isn't usually like a switch (we aren't at MotoGP lean angles). Think more like Marquez's mini-saves, where he picks it up off his knee, but less extreme. I've picked up dozens of front loses with my knee over the years. This is mostly when you're at the limit of grip and go a fraction beyond. Sometimes you'll get a tiny slide that doesn't need picking up, but you feel it. That's a smaller fraction beyond the limit. Practice, and you'll learn the feeling.

A proper lowside (ie no chance of catching the front) is usually an error of some sort, or pushing way too hard.

By just going a tiny bit harder gradually, you'll get to feeling the feedback from the front. And then as you up the pace, you can pretty much rely on the tyre being able to cope with the same thing again (in the same day/conditions with same tyre wear, not forever under any circumstances). This gets you used to the 'next level' of corner speed. And then you trust it: My best laps have had me thinking "I can't believe the front isn't folding here" on the same turn, lap after lap after lap.



Great info i'm in the same boat as Jashdown..id love to know how much is too much for the front end. This advice on the fact that the front will give warning before it lets go is great.
Thanks guys great info.