Front end feel and confidence- How far can you push?

[WRCPUG]

I know it’s a silly question but there are still things that are a mystery to me about how fast you can take/enter a corner. The reason they are a mystery is I don’t think I have reached the limits of the front grip and I really want to know where these limits are. (but I end up not venturing too far from my comfort zone and hence not learning)

I know it’s going to be hard to explain on a forum but I’m looking for some answers to questions I have. Sorry there are a few but they all relate to the same subject.
Things that puzzle me are.....

-How fast can you enter or take a corner without the front end washing out? How will you know how fast you can enter the corner?

-How many front end washouts are actually caused by simply tipping the bike in too quick. Is there such a thing as turning in too quick (in the dry)?

-Are most front end stacks caused by too much trail braking combined with lean angle? Or just too much corner speed and hence load on the tyres?

-On my old CBR I used to trail brake A LOT and with confidence…now on the Aprilia I don’t feel like I have to and it seems like the bike just wants to be thrown into the corners. This I need to adjust to.

-If you do take a corner quicker than the bike can handle what are the consequences? The just bike runs wide and you ruin the corner or worst case you tuck the front?

-I’m super confident at feeling and saving the front end when I ride dirt bikes and love the feeling of both tyre’s sliding obviously its progressive and easy to catch and if i drop the bike who gives a fuck…but get me on the road or track and the thought of losing traction scares the shit out of me and as a result I wont even come near the limits of learning how to deal with this which is limiting.

I have always had this belief for many many years (and its most likely wrong) in my head that there is no progression with slicks…its either grip or no grip and will just tuck out from under me. This is a bullshit belief right????

-How progressive is the sliding that slicks will give before they let go altogether.?

Take for example say Stoner corner at Phillip Island (or even the hayshed) super fast 5th gear left hander/right….that corner is all about trust in the front end…what will I feel if I’m overcoming the tyre’s grip at high speed. The front end pushing? How fast will i loose the front or is it going to be easier to catch than in a slow speed (Honda,MG) corner.

I know there are a lot of questions and I have just spat out a lot of questions that go through my head. I really think being afraid of sliding (as I’m not sure of the consequences) is limiting me and I’m stuck in terms of improving lap times.


Anyway keen to hear thoughts on this subject if I haven’t confused and bored the shit out of you with my stupidly long essay.


Cheers

Alex

[nigelnobody]

Hey alex i think we all want to find our own limits with pushing the front end,as u have said you enjoy the feeling on dirt so thats a huge plus.
Biggest improvement for me was choosing a tyre i knew was way beyond my capabilities at the time and just trust it when pushing beyond comfort zones.
At the time my choice was sc1 pirelli never had any slides beyond gradual drifting so enough time to react and save.
At present am looking at trying the dunlop control kr106 medium i think.Also knowing which corners are front/rear bias helps when using throttle to load one or other.
Never ridden island maybe some fast racers here can help also.
Best part about track riding is the never ending learning that keeps us coming back.

[Marshy]

Sounds like a geometry issue Alex. How far through the triples are the forks?


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[Kris]

If we knew how fast we could take a corner, we'd all be at lap record pace. Thats the thing with the Front end, you never quite know until you build up experience. I heard a quote from a GP rider - the first 40M into the corner is racing - everyone else is capable of the rest.

Corner entry is the holy grail - very hard to achieve.

[nigelnobody]

+1 kris
Remember edwards quoting also when asked about difference from bridgestones/michelen
"Normal to lose rear 10 times a lap and save,but only 1 for front"

[WRCPUG]

Hey alex i think we all want to find our own limits with pushing the front end,as u have said you enjoy the feeling on dirt so thats a huge plus.
Biggest improvement for me was choosing a tyre i knew was way beyond my capabilities at the time and just trust it when pushing beyond comfort zones.
At the time my choice was sc1 pirelli never had any slides beyond gradual drifting so enough time to react and save.
At present am looking at trying the dunlop control kr106 medium i think.Also knowing which corners are front/rear bias helps when using throttle to load one or other.
Never ridden island maybe some fast racers here can help also.
Best part about track riding is the never ending learning that keeps us coming back.

Thanks for the input. Im on SC1 front and SC2 rear so tyres are way past my abilities.
Very good part about either riding track or off road...you never stop learning and thats why i love it so much.

[WRCPUG]

Sounds like a geometry issue Alex. How far through the triples are the forks?


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Oh i haven't got any issues with the bike....thats the thing Nick. There are just mental barriers that i must overcome hence why i started this thread.



If we knew how fast we could take a corner, we'd all be at lap record pace. Thats the thing with the Front end, you never quite know until you build up experience. I heard a quote from a GP rider - the first 40M into the corner is racing - everyone else is capable of the rest.

Corner entry is the holy grail - very hard to achieve.

haha very true Kris..i know its a bit dumb asking on a forum as you can't "feel" anything trying to describe things.

I guess i just have to grow a set and try to push past my comfort zone.

[Kris]

I wouldnt say pushing past your comfort barrier is a good idea - you need to feel confident and comfortable to push. Pushing past comfort barriers will make you crash - that's called trying too hard.

As you get more seat time you'll start to understand the behavior of the bike - as you get more comfortable with that your comfort level will increase, allowing you to push harder, safely. You do first need to get the bike in a good state, both suspension setup wise and geometry wise in order to go faster. I'd recommend you find a tuner you can trust down in Melbourne and go from there. Steve Mudford knows the RSV4 incredibly well and he would be my recommendation for you to get the bike in a good state.

[WRCPUG]

I wouldnt say pushing past your comfort barrier is a good idea - you need to feel confident and comfortable to push. Pushing past comfort barriers will make you crash - that's called trying too hard.

As you get more seat time you'll start to understand the behaviour of the bike - as you get more comfortable with that your comfort level will increase, allowing you to push harder, safely. You do first need to get the bike in a good state, both suspension setup wise and geometry wise in order to go faster. I'd recommend you find a tuner you can trust down in Melbourne and go from there. Steve Mudford knows the RSV4 incredibly well and he would be my recommendation for you to get the bike in a good state.

Kris i don't mean push past in an irresponsible/reckless way(maybe that came across the wrong way)....i guess what i'm trying to say is i always ride conservatively and smoothly (too much so)....i always take little baby steps with my riding...slowly slowly making small improvements and always staying in control.
I never spin up on corner exit (when similar paced/slower riders are) and i need to find those limits so i know where they are. Just like using your knee as a gauge of lean i need to find that limit for grip levels.

After reading that MotoVudu book a few months back i know there are lots of things i can improve on and its just got me asking/thinking about a lot more questions.

As for suspension yeah i saw Steve last year to set the sags for my bike when it was purely road. Now i'm using Daz at Race Centre....i love his attitude and his very honest opinion. He has NOT once tried to sell me anything on making expensive changes when clearly my skill level is not past the standard suspension.

As Daz suggested, Im trying to keep the suspension as standard as possible(except adjustments)....and when i get quick enough to find its limits and notice problems then ill start to work on valving, spring rates,geometry ect. Im very far from that at this stage so its all going to be about improving my riding before spending anything on go fast bits.


On that note Kris are you going to be at the Island this Friday?

[Binksy]

Oh i haven't got any issues with the bike....thats the thing Nick. There are just mental barriers that i must overcome hence why i started this thread.

You might find something like lack of wanting to trail brake on a new bike compared to your old one could be something in the set up. The mental barrier will be because when you try to do something the bike isn't giving you the feed back / stability your after.

Some times the mental barrier is there for a reason. I'd certainly have a play with the set up. I wouldn't be just trying to blindly push your way through all the mental barriers unless you have some people around to put lots of spare bits and pieces on your bike...

[Kris]

Baby steps is a safe way to improve - why would you want to do anything else? Theres nothing wrong with how your approaching it. Riding a bike 'out of control' or take big steps is something that you'd want to do if riding was your job. You, im sure, like most of us earn a crust outside of riding bikes. What im saying is youre approaching it in the right way.

Yep, Daz is another guy I'd recommend.

Sounds like you are doing everything right - just get more and more seat time. Write down what you did, anaylse it over night, go out and try something different if it doesnt work.

Negative - I'm there Wed/Thur/Fri next week though and im fucking excited!!!! :) There must be about 20-25 of my mates going down so its going to be a huge 3 days

[Kimbo]

Well set-up suspension is the first step. Once that is done , just more and more track time and stretching your braking markers closer into the corner and getting out quicker, That's where the top racers make up so much . In and out, and work on one corner at a time. Also take notes

[Marty]

I don't know about other people but I can feel the front end tell me where the limit is, if I'm trailing really hard I can feel it start to tuck then that's the point where I release a touch of pressure off the bar or brakes. If I'm really trying it can happen a couple of times in the corner entry. I think my bike is set up is not very aggressive though, i don't run a lot of fork height and I use a fair bit of physical bar pressure to steer it. So i'd say it's stable not twitchy. If it was set up really twitchy I doubt i would have the same confidence in the front end.

[Marshy]

Good advice Marty. That's why I asked about the fork height. I think it might be an issue.... The Aprilias are often set with the front ride height too low. When set like that, they are very tippy and sharp, but quickly run out of trail mid-corner and feel like they have no grip.

[Carl-52]

I have had the same issue with the vague front end feeling as im still learning. I am slowly just chipping away and adding more lean, more brake pressure further into the corner (after leaving it later to start braking) and keeping more corner speed. Its just a progression thing if your bike is all setup well. it takes time and im starting to figure out how much movement i can have from the front tyre before it gets to the questionable grip stage. sometimes you can feel the tyre push in a different direction to travel as it slides a bit and sometimes you can feel a slight skipping sensation if you're really pushing brake pressure into the corner, apart from those feelings it comes down to how your forks are setup and the sensation you get when you are braking as hard as possible through the tire... I think my big issue came from starting on the dirt bike where you will lock the front wheel with the brakes easily, which is opposite to the racebike where you will run out of brakes/lift the rear really high before you run out of grip in the tyre.

[WRCPUG]

Baby steps is a safe way to improve - why would you want to do anything else? Theres nothing wrong with how your approaching it. Riding a bike 'out of control' or take big steps is something that you'd want to do if riding was your job. You, im sure, like most of us earn a crust outside of riding bikes. What im saying is youre approaching it in the right way.

Yep, Daz is another guy I'd recommend.

Sounds like you are doing everything right - just get more and more seat time. Write down what you did, anaylse it over night, go out and try something different if it doesnt work.

Negative - I'm there Wed/Thur/Fri next week though and im fucking excited!!!! :) There must be about 20-25 of my mates going down so its going to be a huge 3 days

thanks mate. I think your right i just need to be more methodical in my approach and write down settings or events. I think going in with a plan of what i want to improve is something i MUST do. I'm more a "she'll be right" kind of guy and i need to get out of that habit.

Damn i had the 17th booked in month ago but i had to cancel it. I rebooked for the 5th jan though. Hope to see you there.

[WRCPUG]

Marshy- I snapped a pic of my fork height. I have just adjusted my rear shock length a few mm too. It was on the standard road setting before this.

Your thoughts?

158315841585

[Little Mick]

don't mind me but you jacked the back up? that is going to turn it in even faster giving less feel, ie - it will drop into the turns- possibly folding. From what I read above, and Marshy's suggestion that the front forks are typically too low, the raising of the rear will only exacerbate the situation. if anything raise the front trees (lower the forks)

What exactly is it doing? this needs to be understood prior to making changes... If it is tipping in too quick and we are looking to ride height to change the response, then either lowering the rear ( reduced preload or direct lowering will get similar but different results here) may be an option, while raising the front will have a direct impact( several times more than the rear due to distance ratios).

If it is just a lack of feel, then raising the rear won't fix that. I would suggest raising the front until you feel it is more of a push ( or at least having to work harder) so that geometry is close (running setups from Marshy or Kris will get you close) then play with suspension setup.

Feel also comes from suspension settings - where in the turn is it doing what? turning in fast but runs wide? turns in fast and you have to readjust as it goes too tight? struggle to turn it in?
All of these are settings adjustments (possibly valving as well) that can be looked at...



If it is just a very different experience to what you are used to, then more track time on the new ride will help. If it feels fine and not giving you any issues then that's a good starting point. a minor tweak here and there may give an indication of what it is or isn't about to do.

Just remember to make changes based on a plan and sound reasoning.... Otherwise it could get a little messy..

[Marshy]

I'd undo the change on the rear, and go to 1 ring showing on the front (instead of the two that are there now). The 09/10 models have +5.5 offset top and bottom, and like a flatter setup. Where's your swingarm pivot? 2.5mm up or down? Stock is up, but they go better down (the newer models are down by default, and the '15 goes even further with -5mm instead of -2.5mm). Not a big job to change it over.... just unbolt the swingarm enough to flip the spacers upside down.

[Marshy]

Little Mick is right, too. Sorry not to acknowledge you Mick.

The issue with making the bike more 'nose down' (as you have done) is you shorten the trail too much. It will tip into corners very quickly (too quickly) but as you get to maximum lean angle and weight through the suspension, the forks get too upright (ie the angle between the forks and the ground, in simple terms, is too steep and the bike 'trips over' the front wheel). Think of riding a pushbike really slowly.... you know when you turn the bars too much at very slow speed and suddenly the front wheel shoots out backwards instead of the bike continuing forwards? That's running out of trail! The point of pressure of the front wheel moves from in front of the forks to behind the forks, and it trips over itself). The motorbike is the same, and that point in the middle of the turn where it suddenly feels unstable and out of grip is when this happens.

So, flatten out the geometry. The bike will tip in more slowly (and you won't feel like it's running up onto the ripple strip on the inside of the turn), and it will have much more mid-corner grip. It'll be more stable throughout, and you'll go faster. It won't feel as 'nimble' but this is a furphy anyway, because you are sacrificing grip and stability for something that only feels racier but isn't.

[Kris]

don't mind me but you jacked the back up? that is going to turn it in even faster giving less feel, ie - it will drop into the turns- possibly folding. From what I read above, and Marshy's suggestion that the front forks are typically too low, the raising of the rear will only exacerbate the situation. if anything raise the front trees (lower the forks)

What exactly is it doing? this needs to be understood prior to making changes... If it is tipping in too quick and we are looking to ride height to change the response, then either lowering the rear ( reduced preload or direct lowering will get similar but different results here) may be an option, while raising the front will have a direct impact( several times more than the rear due to distance ratios).

If it is just a lack of feel, then raising the rear won't fix that. I would suggest raising the front until you feel it is more of a push ( or at least having to work harder) so that geometry is close (running setups from Marshy or Kris will get you close) then play with suspension setup.

Feel also comes from suspension settings - where in the turn is it doing what? turning in fast but runs wide? turns in fast and you have to readjust as it goes too tight? struggle to turn it in?
All of these are settings adjustments (possibly valving as well) that can be looked at...



If it is just a very different experience to what you are used to, then more track time on the new ride will help. If it feels fine and not giving you any issues then that's a good starting point. a minor tweak here and there may give an indication of what it is or isn't about to do.

Just remember to make changes based on a plan and sound reasoning.... Otherwise it could get a little messy..

Think his complaint Mick was the bike runs wide off the turn.

This is an anti squat issue in the rear - as a suggestion and a easy way to prove my theory - put the biggest possible sprocket on your bike at the rear and see if the issue disappears! Easier than changing the shock length. Alternatively, crank up the preload HEAPS - this is going to make the bike incredibly harsh as the spring will be pushed beyond its compliance level but it will raise the rear of the motorcycle essentially achieving the same thing as increasing the shock length.
Before you increase the preload, take a measurement of your axle centre point to somewhere on the bike. Increase the preload, say 5 turns, take another measurement and see if its longer -it will be. This is not a dangerous thing to do.

Few things to look at, having spent alot of time with these bikes at Computrack and having measured a 12 Factory, 13 R and my 13 WSBK bike (Which has a shock length of 343mm)

These are the bits to look at in relation to running wide:

- Gearing
- Swingarm to pivot length (wheelbase)
- Chain pull angle
- Shock length

9-14 models still use a 30mm offset, even with SLIGHTLY different steering head bushes the change is so minute (throw the figures into the online trail calcs - https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/rakeandtrail.html ) and change the triple clamp offset between 09/14 bikes.

If you raise the rear of the bike, there is going to be more anti squat - which is exactly what you need to fix the issue. Yes, this makes slight changes to the trail, but if you keep it in spec at 105-106mm youll still get a stable and easy to steer bike.

Some reading:

http://www.insidemotorcycles.com/blogs/item/822-gearing-and-anti-squat.html
http://www.sportrider.com/more-fun-geometry
http://www.suspact.com/Anti_Squat.html
http://www.peterverdone.com/archive/rideheight.htm

Last but not least, Aprilia Racings WSS base line settings (tested to great effect by a few guys I talk to in Europe)

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?312276-2015-16-RSV4-RF-chassis-geometry-compared-to-previous-years, post number 12

This is for the 15 model, but youll see the shock length :)

[Marshy]

I can't see anything about Alex mentioning running wide on exit. It was potentially vague and questionable grip at the front, yeah? Or did I miss something?

Love the info on anti-squat!! This is an issue I have quite often.


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[Kris]

I think it was another thread, with this one being a carry over :)

Front end feel.... tyres, valving, springs I guess?

I find the OEM triples, Dunlop tyres with the Ohlins carts really good for front end feel.

With the Ktech DDS carts - its even better.

[chubb]

I worked with Daz and Jed Metcher today and we set up the bike to be flat in the geometry and the different valving. All my braking and turn in points are no longer where they used to be and so much more support in the front end. The bike pulls up like a champ and I can go so much deeper into the corner. Just have to get used to the new set up to chase some times.

Definitely recommend Daz if you are in Melbourne. It's a hike for us but it's worth it.

[WRCPUG]

don't mind me but you jacked the back up? that is going to turn it in even faster giving less feel, ie - it will drop into the turns- possibly folding. From what I read above, and Marshy's suggestion that the front forks are typically too low, the raising of the rear will only exacerbate the situation. if anything raise the front trees (lower the forks)

What exactly is it doing? this needs to be understood prior to making changes... If it is tipping in too quick and we are looking to ride height to change the response, then either lowering the rear ( reduced preload or direct lowering will get similar but different results here) may be an option, while raising the front will have a direct impact( several times more than the rear due to distance ratios).

If it is just a lack of feel, then raising the rear won't fix that. I would suggest raising the front until you feel it is more of a push ( or at least having to work harder) so that geometry is close (running setups from Marshy or Kris will get you close) then play with suspension setup.

Feel also comes from suspension settings - where in the turn is it doing what? turning in fast but runs wide? turns in fast and you have to readjust as it goes too tight? struggle to turn it in?
All of these are settings adjustments (possibly valving as well) that can be looked at...

If it is just a very different experience to what you are used to, then more track time on the new ride will help. If it feels fine and not giving you any issues then that's a good starting point. a minor tweak here and there may give an indication of what it is or isn't about to do.

Just remember to make changes based on a plan and sound reasoning.... Otherwise it could get a little messy..

Thanks heaps for the information and tips mate. The thing is this post was not meant to be about any issues i've got with the bike these are just thoughts and questions i've just got about cornering in general.

The only reason i have raised the rear is going by a post on another forum about shock setup and also going by the manual for my bike it suggests for track use to take the rear shock height to 313mm rathe than the 310 for street.

The front end feel on this bike is great and the only issue i did have was a slight running wide on corner exit which i think was caused by too much squat.

But as you mentioned track time is what i need before i make major adjustments and i was at Phillip island last friday and was feeling much more confident. Im almost back down to my PB on my old bike so i came away quite happy.

[WRCPUG]

Marshy and kris - Thanks heaps for the advice on the setup. I think your right i will need to raise the forks a touch to compensate the raise in rear ride height.
After my track day on Friday and now after reading all your comments its all making alot more sense. I found the bike did not want to run wide on exit however i did notice that i was tipping in TOO quick on some corners (ie turn 1).

My engine and swing-arm position is all standard (2010 factory) so whatever they left the factory with its got. As for changing the positions i was always under the impression that you had to but the different spacers/shim kit to make adjustments?

Kris- in terms of gearing i'm still using the standard chain however have gone -1tooth on the front and +2 on the rear sprockets. I know i should go 520 but that can come later...i'm no racer.

Guys i cant thank you enough this info on setup for these bikes, its invaluable and although its confusing the shit out of me as there are so many variables, its good to know.

[WRCPUG]

I worked with Daz and Jed Metcher today and we set up the bike to be flat in the geometry and the different valving. All my braking and turn in points are no longer where they used to be and so much more support in the front end. The bike pulls up like a champ and I can go so much deeper into the corner. Just have to get used to the new set up to chase some times.

Definitely recommend Daz if you are in Melbourne. It's a hike for us but it's worth it.

Hey Chubb. So you were there friday too? How did you go?
i had a quick chat with Daz and later in the day Jed came up to me and was telling me all about how sensitive these RSV4s are to changes and gave me some great advice.
Im still having some issues with tearing on my rear tyre so i think i might just go get Daz to setup my geometry he's a great guy(has done my KTM setup)....the bonus is he's 5 mins up the road.

Also now as i've raised the rear i notice at turn 4 under hard braking the rear is a little more unstable than i remember it being.

[chubb]

Hey Chubb. So you were there friday too? How did you go?
i had a quick chat with Daz and later in the day Jed came up to me and was telling me all about how sensitive these RSV4s are to changes and gave me some great advice.
Im still having some issues with tearing on my rear tyre so i think i might just go get Daz to setup my geometry he's a great guy(has done my KTM setup)....the bonus is he's 5 mins up the road.

Also now as i've raised the rear i notice at turn 4 under hard braking the rear is a little more unstable than i remember it being.

Yeah I used to have my geometry setup to be nose heavy so the bike turns it quick. Somewhat similar to what you have done. But as I got quicker the bike's front end started walking away from me and the harder and harder I pushed, the worse it became. The rear stepping out became really hard to control.

Friday was all about getting used to the new geometry and front end. Went up in spring rate both front and rear.. It wasn't the best of days to be chasing times as it was on and off raining and cold and windy. Very very windy.

Went to Broadford on the Sunday and was very comfortable with the front end and the way Daz set it up. It's not for everyone but the harder you are on the front the better. Going back to see if I can find more feel on the rear for exit drive.

I smashed my PB at Broadford in 45+ degree track temps so if you can ride it the way he sets it up (very aggressively) it will work out for you in terms of times.

Let me know when you're at the track next. Always keen to have a yarn.

[Little Mick]

Thanks heaps for the information and tips mate. The thing is this post was not meant to be about any issues i've got with the bike these are just thoughts and questions i've just got about cornering in general.

The only reason i have raised the rear is going by a post on another forum about shock setup and also going by the manual for my bike it suggests for track use to take the rear shock height to 313mm rathe than the 310 for street.

The front end feel on this bike is great and the only issue i did have was a slight running wide on corner exit which i think was caused by too much squat.

But as you mentioned track time is what i need before i make major adjustments and i was at Phillip island last friday and was feeling much more confident. Im almost back down to my PB on my old bike so i came away quite happy.

All good mate.

Getting the Pros to assist you when at the track will help heaps if you can swing it... the point is to make a mental note as you feel it happening so you can go back and assess why and what needs to change.

Pick 2 corners at opposite ends of the track to work on getting the feel. Start with your favourites so you have some lines sorted and are focussing on less variables.

When you come in from the session, take a few minutes to yourself to clearly remember what was going on so you can tell the pro what it was doing. Don't try to analyse it out on track.. Use that time for the next turn :)

Most of all - Enjoy :)